Article: 101453 of comp.lang.forth
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From: anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl)
Subject: Forth family tree (was: The future of Forth)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
References: <774e24ad.0406171158.315004d4@posting.google.com>
Organization: Institut fuer Computersprachen, Technische Universitaet Wien
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Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 05:13:04 GMT
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guyvf@usa.net (guy-jin) writes:
>http://www.oreilly.com/news/graphics/prog_lang_poster.pdf
...
>You'll notice Forth has only one 'child', postscript.
>So why does Forth, so far, seem
>to be an evolutionary dead end?
The poster reflects the interest of whoever designed it; i.e., mostly
Eric Levenez, his version is at , and
there you see why the Forth line in the diagram ends in 1987; the
updates were suggested by O'Reilly authors, friends, and conference
attendees, and you see the O'Reilly books (and presumably the
interests of these people) at the bottom of the poster. E.g., the
poster follows the Python releases closely, but shows only a very
simple history of Lisp.
Forth has actually been quite prolific, with lots of descendents
having names containing "Forth": e.g., ColorForth, Forth-83, Gforth),
and lots of descendents named something else (e.g., Magic/L, Pistol,
LSE, Fifth. Note that the magnitude of the difference in name does
not necessarily indicate the magnitude of the difference in content;
e.g. Gforth is closer in spirit to PFE than to ColorForth.
So maybe we should document the Forth family tree, too. I'll make a
start. To avoid discussions of whether something constitutes a
separate language/dialect/variant/whatever, let's just document all
the implementations and standards there are. Just send me entries
like the one below, and I will try to create a family tree from that.
Here's an entry for Gforth (you don't need to be as elaborate as that,
but having dates would be helpful):
Implementation: Gforth
Implements: ANS Forth
Project-start: 1992-07
Contains-code-from: bigForth 1993
Inspired-by: fig-Forth
Inspired-by: F83
Reference: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/gforth/Docs-html/Origin.html
Release: 0.2 1996-12
Release: 0.3 1997-04
Release: 0.4 1998-12
Release: 0.5 2000-09
Release: 0.6 2003-03
Reference: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/gforth/old/
- anton
--
M. Anton Ertl http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
Article: 101464 of comp.lang.forth
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From: Guy Macon
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Re: Forth family tree (was: The future of Forth)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 04:42:30 -0700
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Anton Ertl says...
>So maybe we should document the Forth family tree, too. I'll make a
>start. To avoid discussions of whether something constitutes a
>separate language/dialect/variant/whatever, let's just document all
>the implementations and standards there are. Just send me entries
>like the one below, and I will try to create a family tree from that.
Here are the FORTHs for the Commodore Vic/C64/C128 that I know of.
I will put together a list of CP/M FORTHs this weekend.
64 FORTH [C64 cart] (1983, Tom Zimmer, HES)
Full FIG FORTH implementation with editor, compiler and interpreter.
Expanded version of VIC FORTH for the C64 which includes disk support,
trace, decompile and assembler tools, plus audio and sprite support.
http://project64.c64.org/misc/64forthm.zip
ftp://ftp.funet.fi/pub/cbm/c64/programming/64FORTH.zip
http://project64.ath.cx/misc/64forthm.zip
C64 FORTH/79 [C64] (1983, Greg Harris, Performance Micro Products)
"Conforms to FORTH-79 standard with double-number extensions." Nice
commercial package, with plenty of C64-dependent niceties like
graphics, disk access, screen editing included.
Blazin' Forth [C64,264] (© 1985 Scott Ballantyne)
Complete implementation of FORTH-83 with support for sound, turtle
graphics, sprites and strings. A Plus/4 version was also created,
lacking only the sound and sprite words.
(the following are claimed to be doc files, but I was not able to connect)
ftp://ftp.forth.org/pub/Forth/Compilers/native/misc/commodore64/blazinforth.doc
ftp://ftp.forth.org/pub/Forth/Compilers/native/misc/commodore64/blazinforth.arc
ftp://ftp.forth.org/pub/Forth/Compilers/native/misc/commodore64/blazin64.zip
ftp://ftp.forth.org/pub/Forth/Compilers/native/misc/commodore64/blazinp4.zip
VIC FORTH [VIC cart] (Datatronic) (Tom Zimmer 1982?? HES?)
FIG FORTH implementation with editor, compiler and interpreter.
Includes disk, I/O and cassette support and an assembler. VIC version
of C64 FORTH.
http://ftp.funet.fi/pub/cbm/vic20/programming/VIC-Forth/Manual.txt
http://project64.c64.org/misc/datforth.zip
C64 FORTH [C64 cart] (Datatronic) (date unknown - after 1982)
FIG FORTH implementation with editor, compiler, interpreter and
assembler. Expanded version of VIC FORTH for the C64 which includes
disk, I/O and cassette support.
FORTH [C64,PET] (1982, LC. Cargile and Michael Riley, A B Computers)
FIG FORTH with FORTH 79 standard extensions. Full screen editor.
Metacompiler available separately for producing a compact run-time
version of a program. Floating point support available separately.
Super FORTH 64 [C64] (1983, Elliot B. Schneider, Parsec Research)
MVP-FORTH/FORTH 79 superset. Includes full screen editor, split screen
display, interpreter and compiler, sound, graphics, turtle graphics,
sprite, disk and kernel routines, floating point math, interrupt
routines, conditional macro assembler. Includes sprite editor.
Artificial intelligence expert systems development module available
separately.
Tiny FORTH-64 [C64] (1983, Abacus Software)
FIG FORTH implementation.
Tri FORTH [C64] (1983, International Tri Micro)
FIG FORTH implementation with extensions.
UNIFORTH [VIC] (1984, Unified Software Systems)
Enhanced FORTH-79 with strings, arrays, etc., full macro assembler,
video editor, complete DOS interface, primitive disk utility,
IEEE-compatible floating point with all trig functions, single-step
tracing, decompiler, text file support, vectored I/O.
Sixty FORTH [C64] (1984, Elcomp Publishing Inc.)
Extended FIG FORTH.
White Lightning [C64] (1984, Oasis Software)
"White Lightning is a complete games writing system comprising of a
high level, FORTH based, multi-tasking games writing language and a
powerful Sprite Generator Program. Without doubt, White Lightning's
most innovative feature is its use of interrupts to effectively run
two program at once." (description of the Sinclair version).
"Ideal" subset of FIG-FORTH, but allowed intermixing of BASIC
Lightning and FORTH commands to produce fast hybrid code. Support for
scrolling, raster effects (256 sprites), etc. Includes a sprite
designer, sprite library, BASIC Lightning, and a compiler that can
produce standalone executables. Adds over 250 commands to BASIC.
Popular in the UK and spawned several user groups.
FORTH-64 Language [C64] (1985, Abacus Software)
FORTH 79 with some FORTH 83 extensions. Includes full-screen editor,
complete FORTH-style assembler, programming tools. Includes hires and
lores graphics and sound words.
Master FORTH [C64] (1986, MicroMotion)
Follows the FORTH-83 standard; includes graphics system.
Enhanced FORTH [C64] (1986, Accelerated Software)
Follows FIG FORTH standard.
geoFORTH [C64 GEOS] (© 1989 Nicholas Vrtis)
Version of FIG FORTH which runs under GEOS.
(the following are claimed to be doc files, but I was not able to connect)
ftp://ftp.forth.org/pub/Forth/Archive/commodore64/geoforth.doc
ftp://ftp.forth.org/pub/Forth/Compilers/native/misc/commodore64/geoforth.doc
ftp://ftp.forth.org/pub/Forth/Compilers/native/misc/commodore64/geoforth.arc
Laser Genius [C64] (Date unknown - before 1986)
(David Hunter, Martin Lewis and Andrew Foord, Oasis Software)
Assembler with syntax-checking editor. Monitor with over 70 commands
included. Supports "the analyser" with intelligent breakpoints to slow
or stop the execution of a program, controlled by a tiny subset of
FORTH language commands.
http://home.freeuk.net/markk/CBM/Laser_Genius.readme
http://home.freeuk.net/markk/CBM/Laser_Genius.tar.gz
--
Guy Macon, Electronics Engineer & Project Manager for hire.
Remember Doc Brown from the _Back to the Future_ movies? Do you
have an "impossible" engineering project that only someone like
Doc Brown can solve? My resume is at http://www.guymacon.com/
Article: 101471 of comp.lang.forth
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From: astrobe@netcourrier.com (Astrobe)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Re: Forth family tree (was: The future of Forth)
Date: 18 Jun 2004 08:52:41 -0700
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Implementation: 4IM
Implements: itself
Project-start: 2002-10
Contains-code-from: (nihil)
Inspired-by: Pygmy
Inspired-by: cmForth
Reference: http://membres.lycos.fr/astrobe
Release: 2002-10
Release: 2003-04
Release: 2003-06
Release: 2003-11
Release: 2004-01
Release: 2004-06
( Just kiddin' )
Amicalement,
Astrobe
Article: 101502 of comp.lang.forth
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From: Krishna Myneni
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Re: Forth family tree
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 21:32:29 -0700
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Anton Ertl wrote:
> ...
> So maybe we should document the Forth family tree, too. I'll make a
> start. ...
> Here's an entry for Gforth (you don't need to be as elaborate as that,
> but having dates would be helpful):
>
> Implementation: Gforth
> Implements: ANS Forth
> Project-start: 1992-07
> Contains-code-from: bigForth 1993
> Inspired-by: fig-Forth
> Inspired-by: F83
> Reference: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/gforth/Docs-html/Origin.html
> Release: 0.2 1996-12
> Release: 0.3 1997-04
> Release: 0.4 1998-12
> Release: 0.5 2000-09
> Release: 0.6 2003-03
> Reference: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/gforth/old/
>
> - anton
Implementation: kForth
Implements: ANS Forth subset + special features (dynamic type checking,
dynamically allocated dictionary, deferred execution)
Project-start: 1995, as an embedded interpreter for the program xyplot
Contains-code-from: No prior program.
Inspired-by: LMI UR/Forth
Reference: http://www.ccreweb.org/software/kforth/kforth.html
Release: see http://www.ccreweb.org/software/kforth/revisions.html
Reference: Forthwrite article, "Special Features of kForth",
issues 116 and 117, 2002.
Article: 101649 of comp.lang.forth
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From: John Doty
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Xref: tunews.univie.ac.at comp.lang.forth:101649
Anton Ertl wrote:
> So maybe we should document the Forth family tree, too. I'll make a
> start. To avoid discussions of whether something constitutes a
> separate language/dialect/variant/whatever, let's just document all
> the implementations and standards there are. Just send me entries
> like the one below, and I will try to create a family tree from that.
A Forth clan from Cambridge, Massachusetts (I hope my memory is good here):
Implementation: STOIC
Implements: STOIC
Project-start: 1975?
Inspired-by: Moore's early 70's Forth
Hardware: Data General Nova/Eclipse
Author: Jonathan Sachs
Note: Execution of compiled code at line end instead of word by word
interpretation.
Note: An early version was called "FIFTH"
Implementation: LSE
Implements: LSE
Project-start: 1978?
Inspired-by: STOIC
Hardware: RCA 1802
Author: Robert Goeke
Note: Early versions were called "STOIC", although the language is much
simpler than Sachs' STOIC.
Implementation: MAGIC/L
Implements: MAGIC/L
Project-start: 1978?
Inspired-by: STOIC
Author: Arnold Epstein
Note: Incrementally-compiled PASCAL-like language based on a STOIC-like
threaded code VM, and bootstrapped via an RPN layer.
-jpd
Article: 101820 of comp.lang.forth
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From: m-coughlin
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John Doty wrote:
[snip]
> A Forth clan from Cambridge, Massachusetts (I hope my memory
> is good here):
>
> Implementation: STOIC
> Implements: STOIC
> Project-start: 1975?
> Inspired-by: Moore's early 70's Forth
> Hardware: Data General Nova/Eclipse
> Author: Jonathan Sachs
> Note: Execution of compiled code at line end instead of word by
> word interpretation.
> Note: An early version was called "FIFTH"
[snip]
STOIC started out at MIT and Harvard in biomedical
engineering in Boston. It was running on the Z80 and CP/M. Later
it was ported to the DEC VAX under VMS by Roger Hauck and was
distributed by DECUS.
There used to be code available for download on the web.
Here is a little snippet of it.
http://www.znode51.de/pcwworld/l107/user_1/stoicfle.stc
A more complete copy can be found if there are any CP/M
archives left anywhere.
--
Michael Coughlin m-coughlin@comcast.net Cambridge, MA USA
Article: 101823 of comp.lang.forth
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m-coughlin wrote:
> STOIC started out at MIT and Harvard in biomedical
> engineering in Boston.
Its first application was in biomedical engineering, but Jon Sachs
started working on it when he was the programmer for the SAS-3 x-ray
astronomy spacecraft at MIT (I was there: Jon's working notebook
included all of the info he could find on Chuck Moore's Forth).
> It was running on the Z80 and CP/M. Later
> it was ported to the DEC VAX under VMS by Roger Hauck and was
> distributed by DECUS.
The original hardware (mid '70's) was Data General stuff. The CP/M port
must have been later. I know nothing of the CP/M port, nor of Roger's
VAX port, although I got to know Roger later. Unfortunately, Roger has
passed away.
-jpd
Article: 101650 of comp.lang.forth
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Xref: tunews.univie.ac.at comp.lang.forth:101650
Anton Ertl wrote:
> So maybe we should document the Forth family tree, too. I'll make a
> start. To avoid discussions of whether something constitutes a
> separate language/dialect/variant/whatever, let's just document all
> the implementations and standards there are. Just send me entries
> like the one below, and I will try to create a family tree from that.
A Forth clan from Cambridge, Massachusetts (I hope my memory is good here):
Implementation: STOIC
Implements: STOIC
Project-start: 1975?
Inspired-by: Moore's early 70's Forth
Hardware: Data General Nova/Eclipse
Author: Jonathan Sachs
Note: Execution of compiled code at line end instead of word by word
interpretation.
Note: An early version was called "FIFTH"
Implementation: LSE
Implements: LSE
Project-start: 1978?
Inspired-by: STOIC
Hardware: RCA 1802
Author: Robert Goeke
Note: Early versions were called "STOIC", although the language is much
simpler than Sachs' STOIC.
Implementation: MAGIC/L
Implements: MAGIC/L
Project-start: 1978?
Inspired-by: STOIC
Author: Arnold Epstein
Note: Incrementally-compiled PASCAL-like language based on a STOIC-like
threaded code VM, and bootstrapped via an RPN layer.
-jpd
Article: 102283 of comp.lang.forth
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Reply-To: "Elizabeth D Rather"
From: "Elizabeth D Rather"
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
References: <774e24ad.0406171158.315004d4@posting.google.com> <2004Jun18.071304@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <2004Aug2.202627@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at>
Subject: Re: Forth family tree (was: The future of Forth)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 16:57:40 -0700
Organization: FORTH, Inc.
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"Anton Ertl" wrote in message
news:2004Aug2.202627@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at...
> anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) writes (on June 18th):
> >So maybe we should document the Forth family tree, too. I'll make a
> >start. To avoid discussions of whether something constitutes a
> >separate language/dialect/variant/whatever, let's just document all
> >the implementations and standards there are. Just send me entries
> >like the one below, and I will try to create a family tree from that.
>
> Ok, the first draft of the family tree can be found at
>
> http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/family-tree/
>
> This incorporates all the information that has been posted here, plus
> the pedigree information of Gforth from
...
> Now for the input: Here you see the description of an implementation
> and where it is coming from (with all three kinds of edges):
>
> Implementation Gforth
> Gforth implements Forth94
> BigForth begot Gforth
> figForth inspired Gforth
> F83 inspired Gforth
>
> If your Implementation has a name containing spaces, dashes, or
> somesuch, you have to define the implementation like this:
>
> s" LMI UR-Forth" name-implementation urforth
>
> Send me any additional historical information (in particular, dates)
> in comments (starting with "\ ").
Good idea! Here's a FORTH, Inc. compilation
(assuming I've guessed right about the usage of these words):
Implementation Forth \ NRAO 1972
Forth implements miniFORTH \ FORTH, Inc. 1973-5
Forth implements microFORTH \ FORTH, Inc. 1977
miniFORTH begot polyFORTH \ FORTH, Inc., approx. 1980
microFORTH inspired chipFORTH \ FORTH, Inc. & Computer Solutions, mid-80's
polyFORTH implements chipFORTH
polyFORTH begot SwiftForth \ 1996-7
chipFORTH inspired SwiftX
SwiftForth implements SwiftX \ 1997
Cheers,
Elizabeth
--
==================================================
Elizabeth D. Rather (US & Canada) 800-55-FORTH
FORTH Inc. +1 310-491-3356
5155 W. Rosecrans Ave. #1018 Fax: +1 310-978-9454
Hawthorne, CA 90250
http://www.forth.com
"Forth-based products and Services for real-time
applications since 1973."
==================================================
Article: 102293 of comp.lang.forth
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From: Doug Hoffman
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Re: Forth family tree (was: The future of Forth)
References: <774e24ad.0406171158.315004d4@posting.google.com> <2004Jun18.071304@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <2004Aug2.202627@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at>
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Implementation MacForth \ Creative Solutions 1984, First Forth for Mac
MacForth begot MacForth+ \ Creative Solutions 1987? Supported new Roms
MacForth+ begot PowerMacForth \ MegaWolf Date?
SmalltalkandForth inspired Neon \ Kriya Systems 1985 Charles Duff OOP
Neon begat Yerk \ Bob Loewenstein Date? Controlling Observatory
telescope
Neon inspired Mops \ Mike Hore Date? Subroutine Threading, Optimizing
Compiler
Mops begat PowerMops \ Mike Hore Date? PowerPC native code, OSX Native
Code Date?
Implementation MachForth \ Company? Date? Subroutine Threading
Flint inspired Pocket Forth \ Chris Heilman Date? Extreme Minimalism
Incomplete but better than nothing (Macintosh).
Regards,
-Doug
Article: 102296 of comp.lang.forth
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From: "Alex McDonald"
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Re: Forth family tree (was: The future of Forth)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 11:37:25 +0000 (UTC)
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"Anton Ertl" wrote in message
news:2004Aug2.202627@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at...
> anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) writes (on June 18th):
> >So maybe we should document the Forth family tree, too. I'll make a
> >start. To avoid discussions of whether something constitutes a
> >separate language/dialect/variant/whatever, let's just document all
> >the implementations and standards there are. Just send me entries
> >like the one below, and I will try to create a family tree from that.
===snipped
>
> Send me any additional historical information (in particular, dates)
> in comments (starting with "\ ").
>
Implementation F-PC \ ? nothing known by me; TJZ public domain
fig-FORTH begot F-PC \ ?
Implementation TCOM \ ? nothing known by me; TJZ
F-PC begot TCOM
Implementation Win32Forth \ Andrew McKewan, Robert Smith, Y.T. Lin, Andy
Corsack, Jim Schneider; mid 1994; WinNT
Unknown inspired Win32Forth \ Andrew McKewan; 1994; ? anyone know? F-83?
F-PC?
Win32Forth implements Forth94
F-PC begot Win32Forth \ Tom Zimmer; 1994
F83 inspired Win32Forth \ Andrew McKewan; 1996; meta compilation
Yerk inspired Win32Forth \ Andrew McKewan; 1996; OO support
Entries above depend on Doug Hoffman's additions.
As to inspired; TJZ added 1000s of words -- most forths inspired him I
guess.
--
Regards
Alex McDonald
Andrew McKewan, Robert Smith and I were the primary contributors, followed
by Y.T. Lin, and Andy Corsack. Later I talked Jim Schneider into writing a
full 486 assembler, which he donated, completing the system.
Article: 102308 of comp.lang.forth
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Reply-To: "Elizabeth D Rather"
From: "Elizabeth D Rather"
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
References: <774e24ad.0406171158.315004d4@posting.google.com> <2004Jun18.071304@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <2004Aug2.202627@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <2004Aug3.072507@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at>
Subject: Re: Forth family tree (was: The future of Forth)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 11:15:13 -0700
Organization: FORTH, Inc.
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"Anton Ertl" wrote in message
news:2004Aug3.072507@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at...
> Thank you. You apparently guessed wrongly for IMPLEMENTS. It
> should be used as:
>
> implements
>
> but I have now renamed IMPLEMENTS to CONFORMS-TO, which is hopefully
> less confusing.
>
> And here are explanations for the other words:
>
> \ a significant amount of code from implementation1 was originally
> \ in implementation2
> begot
>
> \ word specs from something1 were implemented/standardized in something2
> inspired
Hmm, I was guessing that "inspired" meant concepts in 1 were implemented in
2.
> What did you want to express with IMPLEMENTS?
That 1 was used to develop 2. polyFORTH was used to develop the host side
of chipFORTH, and SwiftForth was used as the basis for the host side of
SwiftX.
> In any case, this is how I adapted your data:
>
> \ from Elizabeth Rather
> \ Implementation Forth \ NRAO 1972
> \ Forth implements miniFORTH \ FORTH, Inc. 1973-5
> \ Forth implements microFORTH \ FORTH, Inc. 1977
> Implementation miniFORTH
> Implementation polyFORTH
> miniFORTH begot polyFORTH \ FORTH, Inc., approx. 1980
Correct date for polyFORTH is 1982.
> Implementation chipFORTH
> microFORTH inspired chipFORTH \ FORTH, Inc. & Computer Solutions,
mid-80's
> \ polyFORTH implements chipFORTH
> Implementation SwiftForth
> SwiftForth conforms-to Forth94
> polyFORTH begot SwiftForth \ 1996-7
> Implementation SwiftX
> chipFORTH inspired SwiftX
> \ SwiftForth implements SwiftX \ 1997
>
> Of course, this misses connections between the
> miniForth-polyForth-SwiftForth chain and the
> FORTH-microFORTH-chipFORTH-SwiftX chain,
I had assumed that "begot" was intended to represent these generational
relationships.
> ...and also some informations
> about standards conformance (I guess there have been versions of
> polyFORTH conforming to Forth-79, Forth-83, and ANS Forth, but I would
> like your confirmation for this).
As far as standards conformance is concerned, Forth-79 was such an
incomplete and contradictory "standard" that I doubt anyone can fully claim
conformance to it. polyFORTH was very close to Forth-83, and had an
optional compatibility suite for the non-conforming bits. This unhappy
state of affairs came about because Forth-83 was done in two meetings; the
design of pF was finalized between the first and second, and conformed to
all the "firm decisions" taken in the first meeting. But some of those were
reversed in the 2nd meeting, and that created too many incompatibilities for
us to follow. SwiftForth conforms to ANS Forth.
Cheers,
Elizabeth
--
==================================================
Elizabeth D. Rather (US & Canada) 800-55-FORTH
FORTH Inc. +1 310-491-3356
5155 W. Rosecrans Ave. #1018 Fax: +1 310-978-9454
Hawthorne, CA 90250
http://www.forth.com
"Forth-based products and Services for real-time
applications since 1973."
==================================================
Article: 102298 of comp.lang.forth
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From: "George Hubert"
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Re: Forth family tree (was: The future of Forth)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 12:34:47 +0000 (UTC)
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"Alex McDonald" wrote in message
news:centdl$21k$1@hercules.btinternet.com...
> "Anton Ertl" wrote in message
> news:2004Aug2.202627@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at...
> > anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) writes (on June 18th):
--
>
> Implementation F-PC \ ? nothing known by me; TJZ public domain
> fig-FORTH begot F-PC \ ?
>
> Implementation TCOM \ ? nothing known by me; TJZ
> F-PC begot TCOM
I think TCOM was just a target compiler running under F-PC for producing
.COM based executables, rather than a seperate Forth
> Implementation Win32Forth \ Andrew McKewan, Robert Smith, Y.T. Lin, Andy
> Corsack, Jim Schneider; mid 1994; WinNT
> Unknown inspired Win32Forth \ Andrew McKewan; 1994; ? anyone know? F-83?
> F-PC?
I would say F-PC and FIG
> Win32Forth implements Forth94
> F-PC begot Win32Forth \ Tom Zimmer; 1994
> F83 inspired Win32Forth \ Andrew McKewan; 1996; meta compilation
I think it was TCOM that inspired/begot the meta compiler
> Yerk inspired Win32Forth \ Andrew McKewan; 1996; OO support
and the Locals ( I think the date should 1994 the same as the main system ).
>
> Entries above depend on Doug Hoffman's additions.
>
> As to inspired; TJZ added 1000s of words -- most forths inspired him I
> guess.
Most of those words were from F-PC and his earlier FIG systems IIRC
>
> --
> Regards
> Alex McDonald
> Andrew McKewan, Robert Smith and I were the primary contributors, followed
> by Y.T. Lin, and Andy Corsack. Later I talked Jim Schneider into writing a
> full 486 assembler, which he donated, completing the system.
>
George Hubert
Article: 102323 of comp.lang.forth
From: stephenXXX@INVALID.mpeltd.demon.co.uk (Stephen Pelc)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Re: Forth family tree (was: The future of Forth)
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 08:58:13 GMT
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On Tue, 3 Aug 2004 11:37:25 +0000 (UTC), "Alex McDonald"
wrote:
>Implementation Win32Forth \ Andrew McKewan, Robert Smith, Y.T. Lin, Andy
>Corsack, Jim Schneider; mid 1994; WinNT
>Unknown inspired Win32Forth \ Andrew McKewan; 1994; ? anyone know? F-83?
MPE_ProForth_for_Windows_v1.0 inspired Win32Forth
\ Right down to the bugs in the assembler
Stephen
--
Stephen Pelc, stephenXXX@INVALID.mpeltd.demon.co.uk
MicroProcessor Engineering Ltd - More Real, Less Time
133 Hill Lane, Southampton SO15 5AF, England
tel: +44 (0)23 8063 1441, fax: +44 (0)23 8033 9691
web: http://www.mpeltd.demon.co.uk - free VFX Forth downloads
Article: 102344 of comp.lang.forth
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From: stephenXXX@INVALID.mpeltd.demon.co.uk (Stephen Pelc)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Re: Forth family tree (was: The future of Forth)
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Here are the MPE systems from memory. Some dates may be a
little approximate.
\ Although it was no formal standard, FIG Forth was
\ influential enough to deserve categorisation as a
\ standard
??? ??? s" FIG Forth" standard ForthFIG
1983 ?? implementation WorkForth \ circa 1983
\ The first hosted MPE Forth for CPM, MSDOS and so on.
\ These were 16 bit ITC Forths as far as I can remember.
WorkForth implements ForthFIG
figForth inspired WorkForth
1985 ?? inplementation PowerForth
\ Our first Forth 83 product and the basis of a chassis
\ which lasted until ANS Forth arrived. 16 bit DTC DOS system
\ with TOS cached.
PowerForth implements Forth83
WorkForth inspired PowerForth
WorkForth begot PowerForth
1987 ?? implementation ModularForth
\ A derivative of PowerForth with multiple 64k modules.
ModularForth implements Forth83
PowerForth inspired ModularForth
PowerForth begot ModularForth
1988 ?? implementation GemForth
\ 32 bit version for the Atari ST
GemForth implements Forth83
PowerForth inspired GemForth
PowerForth begot GemForth
1988 ?? s" ProForth for DOS" name-implementation PFD
\ 32 bit version for DOS
PFD implements Forth83
PowerForth inspired PFD
PowerForth begot PFD
1991 ?? s" ProForth for Windows" name-implementation PFW
\ 32 bit version for Windows. Released almost simultaneously
\ with Windows NT v3.1. Version 1.x was soon replaced by
\ version 2.x.
PFW implements Forth83
PFD inspired PFW
PFD begot PFW
1978 ?? s" UCSD Pascal" name-implementation Pcode \ for reference
1990 ?? implementation AnsiC \ for reference
1993 ?? implementation SENDIT
\ A tokenised Forth VM for byte code interpreters on embedded
\ network systems. Produced as a deliverable for the EU SENDIT
\ project, it had both C and Forth compilers.
Forth83 inspired SENDIT
AnsiC inspired SENDIT
Pcode inspired SENDIT
Forth83 begot SENDIT
1996 ?? implementation OTA
\ A SENDIT derivative for payment terminals with C and Forth
\ compilers. The project is owned by Europay International
\ (now part of MasterCard). The tool chains were mostly
\ developedby MPE. The run-time kernels were mostly developed
\ by Forth Inc (in Forth), a few by MPE (in Forth) and the C
\ kernel was written by Rowley Associates as an MPE
\ subcontractor.
OTA implements Forth94
SENDIT inspired OTA
SENDIT begot VFXW
1997 ?? implementation Practical
\ Another EU research project in which MPE worked on
\ JIT compilers for tokenised systems. These formed the
\ basis of the VFX code generator.
SENDIT inspired Practical
SENDIT begot Practical
1998 ?? s" VFX Forth for Windows" name-implementation VFXW
\ 32 bit version for Windows. Only the third Forth chassis
\ that MPE has written. A native code ANS system with a
\ very aggressive code generator. Developed simultaneously
\ with the VFX cross compilers below.
VFXW implements Forth94
PFW inspired VFXW
PFW begot VFXW
1998 ?? s" VFX Cross Compilers" name-implementation XVFX
\ The VFX code generator has been ported to produce code
\ for seven different CPU architectures: i32, H8S, ARM, 68xxx,
\ Coldfire, 68HC12/9S12, MSP430. Several other CPUs have been
\ prototyped.
XVFX implements Forth94
Practical inspired XVFX
PFW inspired XVFX
PFW begot XVFX
Stephen
--
Stephen Pelc, stephenXXX@INVALID.mpeltd.demon.co.uk
MicroProcessor Engineering Ltd - More Real, Less Time
133 Hill Lane, Southampton SO15 5AF, England
tel: +44 (0)23 8063 1441, fax: +44 (0)23 8033 9691
web: http://www.mpeltd.demon.co.uk - free VFX Forth downloads
Article: 102333 of comp.lang.forth
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From: "Alex McDonald"
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Re: Forth family tree (was: The future of Forth)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 15:25:03 +0000 (UTC)
Organization: BT Openworld
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"Stephen Pelc" wrote in message
news:4110a43d.591140234@192.168.0.1...
> On Tue, 3 Aug 2004 11:37:25 +0000 (UTC), "Alex McDonald"
> wrote:
>
> >Implementation Win32Forth \ Andrew McKewan, Robert Smith, Y.T. Lin, Andy
> >Corsack, Jim Schneider; mid 1994; WinNT
> >Unknown inspired Win32Forth \ Andrew McKewan; 1994; ? anyone know? F-83?
>
> MPE_ProForth_for_Windows_v1.0 inspired Win32Forth
> \ Right down to the bugs in the assembler
Begot? (rather than contributed major parts to, which is what I think Anton
means?)
TJZ's notes on the development of W32F make it clear that the kernel was
written in assembler for TASM (Borland) by Andrew McKewan, and that he (TJZ)
ported quite large chunks of F-PC to it, after rejecting the only 32bit NT
version available on the market at the time (was it MPE ProForth? The date
was before mid 1994).
The assembler was written separately by Jim Schneider & completed later
(dates in 1994 & 1995); TJZ talks of having to persuade Jim to complete the
assembler. Not having seen MPE ProForth for Windows v1.0, nor it's
assembler, I can't comment on its provenance, or the commonality of its
source & bugs. It's also used by the Russian SP-FORTH group.
--
Regards
Alex McDonald
Article: 102354 of comp.lang.forth
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From: "Alex McDonald"
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Re: Forth family tree (was: The future of Forth)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 07:24:44 +0000 (UTC)
Organization: BT Openworld
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"Stephen Pelc" wrote in message
news:4111705f.643397734@192.168.0.1...
> On Wed, 4 Aug 2004 15:25:03 +0000 (UTC), "Alex McDonald"
> wrote:
>
> >TJZ's notes on the development of W32F make it clear that the kernel was
> >written in assembler for TASM (Borland) by Andrew McKewan, and that he
(TJZ)
> >ported quite large chunks of F-PC to it, after rejecting the only 32bit
NT
> >version available on the market at the time (was it MPE ProForth? The
date
> >was before mid 1994).
>
> Their employer at the time purchased two copies of ProForth 1.0 with
> full source code. They wanted some changes done free, and MPE wanted
> to be paid. The rest is history. The cost to the employer and the
> time spent was far greater than our quote.
>
The question of cost is as may be. You appear to be implying that Andrew
McKewan and/or Tom Zimmer literally copied parts of ProForth?
--
Regards
Alex McDonald
Article: 102364 of comp.lang.forth
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From: stephenXXX@INVALID.mpeltd.demon.co.uk (Stephen Pelc)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Re: Forth family tree (was: The future of Forth)
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 12:38:33 GMT
Organization: MPE
Lines: 33
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On Thu, 5 Aug 2004 07:24:44 +0000 (UTC), "Alex McDonald"
wrote:
>The question of cost is as may be. You appear to be implying that Andrew
>McKewan and/or Tom Zimmer literally copied parts of ProForth?
I didn't say that.
Many of the not so good design decisions of PFW1.0 are present
in W32F. These decisions were removed in PFW2.x. Most of the
features of PFW1.x for which source was provided are in W32F.
Features for which source was not provided are not present
in W32F.
Having the source code for an existing implementation makes
life *very* much easier.
VFX Forth is a new chassis from the ground up. Source code
for certain parts of it, e.g. the optimiser, is only supplied
under an NDA with some restrictions as to use - "competing
products" are mentioned. We learn from our mistakes.
Bringing W32F up to date is a worthy goal. However, IMHO,
the chassis is simply obsolete. Eventually you have to throw
an old favourite away and bite the bullet of a new chassis.
Stephen
--
Stephen Pelc, stephenXXX@INVALID.mpeltd.demon.co.uk
MicroProcessor Engineering Ltd - More Real, Less Time
133 Hill Lane, Southampton SO15 5AF, England
tel: +44 (0)23 8063 1441, fax: +44 (0)23 8033 9691
web: http://www.mpeltd.demon.co.uk - free VFX Forth downloads
Article: 102343 of comp.lang.forth
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Reply-To: "Elizabeth D Rather"
From: "Elizabeth D Rather"
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
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Subject: Re: Forth family tree (was: The future of Forth)
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 12:01:11 -0700
Organization: FORTH, Inc.
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"Anton Ertl" wrote in message
news:2004Aug4.151139@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at...
...
> >> What did you want to express with IMPLEMENTS?
> >
> >That 1 was used to develop 2. polyFORTH was used to develop the host
side
> >of chipFORTH, and SwiftForth was used as the basis for the host side of
> >SwiftX.
>
> Hmm, I assume this means that significant code of polyForth is in
> chipForth, and of SwiftForth is in SwiftX, so I added some begot
> edges.
One way of looking at it is that the chipFORTH host is a polyFORTH
application, and similarly the SwiftX host is a SwiftForth application.
> Looking at your HOPL-II paper again, I don't see any mention of
> miniForth there; also microForth was presented there are an ordinary
> Forth system (and direct predecessor of fig-Forth) rather than a
> cross-development system like SwiftX (if I understand SwiftX
> correctly) and presumably chipFORTH.
"miniFORTH" is the product name given to the Forth we developed in the early
days of FORTH, Inc. We just called it "Forth" until we developed
microFORTH, which was so different we needed names for both.
> >> Of course, this misses connections between the
> >> miniForth-polyForth-SwiftForth chain and the
> >> FORTH-microFORTH-chipFORTH-SwiftX chain,
> >
> >I had assumed that "begot" was intended to represent these generational
> >relationships.
>
> I don't thing that "generational relationship" is precise enough or
> widely enough applicable to be useful for this chart.
What I'm trying to convey there is an evolving sequence of systems aimed at
the same basic niche. miniFORTH, polyFORTH, and SwiftForth are all intended
for minicomputers or PCs where the development environment is integrated
with the application. microFORTH, chipFORTH, and SwiftX are oriented toward
embedded microcontrollers (and, as you note, the latter two are
cross-development systems).
Cheers,
Elizabeth
--
==================================================
Elizabeth D. Rather (US & Canada) 800-55-FORTH
FORTH Inc. +1 310-491-3356
5155 W. Rosecrans Ave. #1018 Fax: +1 310-978-9454
Hawthorne, CA 90250
http://www.forth.com
"Forth-based products and Services for real-time
applications since 1973."
==================================================
Article: 102411 of comp.lang.forth
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From: Guy Macon
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Re: Forth family tree
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 13:01:52 -0700
Organization: Electrical / Electronics Engineer Resume: http://www.guymacon.com
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I found this today while searching fopr Forth versions that can
act as standalone operating systems. I am not sure how it fits
into the tree.
"RetroForth is a public_domain implementation of the Forth
programming language. Originally written in 1998 by Tom Novelli,
and maintained by Charles Childers since 2002.
"RetroForth [since version 3] is modeled after CMforth, Colorforth,
Eforth and Pygmy. It uses some, but not all, of Chuck Moore's
newer ideas. It's clean, elegant, and tiny - only about 20k
source/10k binary for Linux."
(Latest version: January 2004 RetroForth release 6.20)
http://www.retroforth.org/
http://retroforth.org/fwiki/
http://www.bebits.com/app/3943/
http://retroforth.org/fwiki/?id=history
--
Guy Macon
Article: 102510 of comp.lang.forth
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From: Jos van de Ven
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Re: Forth family tree (was: The future of Forth)
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 22:17:15 +0200
Organization: Planet Internet
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Stephen wrote:
> Here are the MPE systems from memory. Some dates may be a
> little approximate.
> 1988 ?? implementation GemForth
> \ 32 bit version for the Atari ST
> GemForth implements Forth83
> PowerForth inspired GemForth
> PowerForth begot GemForth
The GemForth I used was build on UNIX-FORTH
UNIX-FORTH was written by Mitch Bradley.
Jos
==
4ePost: 368 bytes in mail. Elapsed time to buffer: .001423 sec.
Article: 102843 of comp.lang.forth
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From: "Bruno Gauthier"
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
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Subject: Re: Forth family tree (was: The future of Forth)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:14:03 +0200
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Hi,
on Atari St , that was not gemforth but Forthmacs.
Gem was the OS
bruno
"Jos van de Ven" a écrit dans le message de news:
cfls06$28h$1@reader13.wxs.nl...
>
> Stephen wrote:
>> Here are the MPE systems from memory. Some dates may be a
>> little approximate.
>
>> 1988 ?? implementation GemForth
>> \ 32 bit version for the Atari ST
>> GemForth implements Forth83
>> PowerForth inspired GemForth
>> PowerForth begot GemForth
>
> The GemForth I used was build on UNIX-FORTH
> UNIX-FORTH was written by Mitch Bradley.
>
> Jos
> ==
> 4ePost: 368 bytes in mail. Elapsed time to buffer: .001423 sec.
Article: 102846 of comp.lang.forth
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From: Jos van de Ven
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Re: Forth family tree (was: The future of Forth)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 20:01:14 +0200
Organization: Planet Internet
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"Bruno Gauthier" wrote:
> Hi,
> on Atari St , that was not gemforth but Forthmacs.
There were several Forth-systems for the Atari.
> Gem was the OS
The GemForth I used was build on UNIX-FORTH
as an extension. I build it myself on it and gave it a new name.
It was never put on the internet.
It was spread from a local BBS.
I got the name UNIX-FORTH from one of the disk.
Jos
> "Jos van de Ven" a écrit dans le message de news:
> cfls06$28h$1@reader13.wxs.nl...
> >
> > Stephen wrote:
> >> Here are the MPE systems from memory. Some dates may be a
> >> little approximate.
> >
> >> 1988 ?? implementation GemForth
> >> \ 32 bit version for the Atari ST
> >> GemForth implements Forth83
> >> PowerForth inspired GemForth
> >> PowerForth begot GemForth
> >
> > The GemForth I used was build on UNIX-FORTH
> > UNIX-FORTH was written by Mitch Bradley.
> >
> > Jos
> > ==
> > 4ePost: 368 bytes in mail. Elapsed time to buffer: .001423 sec.
>
>
> .
==
4ePost: 1,008 bytes in mail. Elapsed time to buffer: .014742 sec.
Article: 112703 of comp.lang.forth
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From: Bernd Paysan
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Re: New Distribution Package Distribution Packet VolksForth Atari ST Version 3.81
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 11:43:11 +0200
Organization: Deutsche Telekom AG
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Anton Ertl wrote:
> Carsten Strotmann writes:
>>VolksForth is a 16bit Forth System produced by the German Forth
>>Gesellschaft e.V. Main development of this system was done between 1985
>>until 1989.
>
> Hmm, I have the date 1981 in the family tree data (and 1986 for
> TurboForth), and I think I have this from a posting by Klaus
> Schleisiek here. I don't see the posting on google groups, though.
I got my volksForth 3.70 and 3.81 in 1986, and TurboForth (released later as
bigFORTH) in 1989. volksForth followed the Forth-83 standard, so it must
have started later than that. It also was a Forth Gesellschaft e.V. effort,
and the FG was founded in 1984. 1985-86 for the main development effort,
and -89 to TurboForth is the only possible time-line that fits all these
constraints. Klaus might be thinking about earlier efforts which went into
volksForth as well, but the project itself was started short after the
foundation of the FG.
--
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
http://www.jwdt.com/~paysan/
Article: 112737 of comp.lang.forth
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From: Bernd Paysan
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Re: VolksForth history (was: New Distribution Package ...)
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 14:29:59 +0200
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Anton Ertl wrote:
>>I got my volksForth 3.70 and 3.81 in 1986, and TurboForth (released later
>>as bigFORTH) in 1989. volksForth followed the Forth-83 standard, so it
>>must have started later than that.
>
> That was about what I originally had, until (IIRC) Klaus corrected me.
> Maybe it was at EuroForth, not in a posting. He also said that it was
> not a 83-standard Forth.
IIRC, I originally supposed that VolksForth was based on F83, but it
actually was based on figForth, but changed to match the Forth-83 standard.
The development might have included parts that Klaus developed in 1981,
since volksForth started out of something Klaus had before.
> Ok, I have corrected this to:
>
> \ VolksForth and TurboForth
> \U http://www.forth-ev.de/filemgmt/singlefile.php?lid=17
> \I for MSDOS, 6502, Z80, Atari ST by Forth Gesellschaft
> 1985 Implementation VolksForth
> figForth begot VolksForth
> VolksForth conforms-to Forth83
>
> 1989 Implementation TurboForth
> TurboForth conforms-to Forth83
> VolksForth begot TurboForth
I think most of TurboForth was implemented in 1988 or before, since in early
1989, when I got it, the development already had stalled.
--
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
http://www.jwdt.com/~paysan/