Article: 101453 of comp.lang.forth Path: tunews.univie.ac.at!aconews-feed.univie.ac.at!aconews.univie.ac.at!not-for-mail X-newsreader: xrn 9.03-beta-14 From: anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) Subject: Forth family tree (was: The future of Forth) Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth References: <774e24ad.0406171158.315004d4@posting.google.com> Organization: Institut fuer Computersprachen, Technische Universitaet Wien Keywords: Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 05:13:04 GMT Message-ID: <2004Jun18.071304@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> Lines: 51 NNTP-Posting-Host: a4.complang.tuwien.ac.at X-Trace: 1087539523 tunews.univie.ac.at 33210 128.130.173.65 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tuwien.ac.at Xref: tunews.univie.ac.at comp.lang.forth:101453 guyvf@usa.net (guy-jin) writes: >http://www.oreilly.com/news/graphics/prog_lang_poster.pdf ... >You'll notice Forth has only one 'child', postscript. >So why does Forth, so far, seem >to be an evolutionary dead end? The poster reflects the interest of whoever designed it; i.e., mostly Eric Levenez, his version is at , and there you see why the Forth line in the diagram ends in 1987; the updates were suggested by O'Reilly authors, friends, and conference attendees, and you see the O'Reilly books (and presumably the interests of these people) at the bottom of the poster. E.g., the poster follows the Python releases closely, but shows only a very simple history of Lisp. Forth has actually been quite prolific, with lots of descendents having names containing "Forth": e.g., ColorForth, Forth-83, Gforth), and lots of descendents named something else (e.g., Magic/L, Pistol, LSE, Fifth. Note that the magnitude of the difference in name does not necessarily indicate the magnitude of the difference in content; e.g. Gforth is closer in spirit to PFE than to ColorForth. So maybe we should document the Forth family tree, too. I'll make a start. To avoid discussions of whether something constitutes a separate language/dialect/variant/whatever, let's just document all the implementations and standards there are. Just send me entries like the one below, and I will try to create a family tree from that. Here's an entry for Gforth (you don't need to be as elaborate as that, but having dates would be helpful): Implementation: Gforth Implements: ANS Forth Project-start: 1992-07 Contains-code-from: bigForth 1993 Inspired-by: fig-Forth Inspired-by: F83 Reference: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/gforth/Docs-html/Origin.html Release: 0.2 1996-12 Release: 0.3 1997-04 Release: 0.4 1998-12 Release: 0.5 2000-09 Release: 0.6 2003-03 Reference: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/gforth/old/ - anton -- M. Anton Ertl http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html Article: 101464 of comp.lang.forth Path: tunews.univie.ac.at!aconews-feed.univie.ac.at!newsfeed.wu-wien.ac.at!newsfeed.utanet.at!news.cambrium.nl!news.cambrium.nl!newsgate.cistron.nl!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!proxad.net!freenix!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail From: Guy Macon Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth Subject: Re: Forth family tree (was: The future of Forth) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 04:42:30 -0700 Organization: Electrical / Electronics Engineer Resume: http://www.guymacon.com Message-ID: <10d5l8podobl033@corp.supernews.com> References: <774e24ad.0406171158.315004d4@posting.google.com> <2004Jun18.071304@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8Bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 123 Xref: tunews.univie.ac.at comp.lang.forth:101464 Anton Ertl says... >So maybe we should document the Forth family tree, too. I'll make a >start. To avoid discussions of whether something constitutes a >separate language/dialect/variant/whatever, let's just document all >the implementations and standards there are. Just send me entries >like the one below, and I will try to create a family tree from that. Here are the FORTHs for the Commodore Vic/C64/C128 that I know of. I will put together a list of CP/M FORTHs this weekend. 64 FORTH [C64 cart] (1983, Tom Zimmer, HES) Full FIG FORTH implementation with editor, compiler and interpreter. Expanded version of VIC FORTH for the C64 which includes disk support, trace, decompile and assembler tools, plus audio and sprite support. http://project64.c64.org/misc/64forthm.zip ftp://ftp.funet.fi/pub/cbm/c64/programming/64FORTH.zip http://project64.ath.cx/misc/64forthm.zip C64 FORTH/79 [C64] (1983, Greg Harris, Performance Micro Products) "Conforms to FORTH-79 standard with double-number extensions." Nice commercial package, with plenty of C64-dependent niceties like graphics, disk access, screen editing included. Blazin' Forth [C64,264] (© 1985 Scott Ballantyne) Complete implementation of FORTH-83 with support for sound, turtle graphics, sprites and strings. A Plus/4 version was also created, lacking only the sound and sprite words. (the following are claimed to be doc files, but I was not able to connect) ftp://ftp.forth.org/pub/Forth/Compilers/native/misc/commodore64/blazinforth.doc ftp://ftp.forth.org/pub/Forth/Compilers/native/misc/commodore64/blazinforth.arc ftp://ftp.forth.org/pub/Forth/Compilers/native/misc/commodore64/blazin64.zip ftp://ftp.forth.org/pub/Forth/Compilers/native/misc/commodore64/blazinp4.zip VIC FORTH [VIC cart] (Datatronic) (Tom Zimmer 1982?? HES?) FIG FORTH implementation with editor, compiler and interpreter. Includes disk, I/O and cassette support and an assembler. VIC version of C64 FORTH. http://ftp.funet.fi/pub/cbm/vic20/programming/VIC-Forth/Manual.txt http://project64.c64.org/misc/datforth.zip C64 FORTH [C64 cart] (Datatronic) (date unknown - after 1982) FIG FORTH implementation with editor, compiler, interpreter and assembler. Expanded version of VIC FORTH for the C64 which includes disk, I/O and cassette support. FORTH [C64,PET] (1982, LC. Cargile and Michael Riley, A B Computers) FIG FORTH with FORTH 79 standard extensions. Full screen editor. Metacompiler available separately for producing a compact run-time version of a program. Floating point support available separately. Super FORTH 64 [C64] (1983, Elliot B. Schneider, Parsec Research) MVP-FORTH/FORTH 79 superset. Includes full screen editor, split screen display, interpreter and compiler, sound, graphics, turtle graphics, sprite, disk and kernel routines, floating point math, interrupt routines, conditional macro assembler. Includes sprite editor. Artificial intelligence expert systems development module available separately. Tiny FORTH-64 [C64] (1983, Abacus Software) FIG FORTH implementation. Tri FORTH [C64] (1983, International Tri Micro) FIG FORTH implementation with extensions. UNIFORTH [VIC] (1984, Unified Software Systems) Enhanced FORTH-79 with strings, arrays, etc., full macro assembler, video editor, complete DOS interface, primitive disk utility, IEEE-compatible floating point with all trig functions, single-step tracing, decompiler, text file support, vectored I/O. Sixty FORTH [C64] (1984, Elcomp Publishing Inc.) Extended FIG FORTH. White Lightning [C64] (1984, Oasis Software) "White Lightning is a complete games writing system comprising of a high level, FORTH based, multi-tasking games writing language and a powerful Sprite Generator Program. Without doubt, White Lightning's most innovative feature is its use of interrupts to effectively run two program at once." (description of the Sinclair version). "Ideal" subset of FIG-FORTH, but allowed intermixing of BASIC Lightning and FORTH commands to produce fast hybrid code. Support for scrolling, raster effects (256 sprites), etc. Includes a sprite designer, sprite library, BASIC Lightning, and a compiler that can produce standalone executables. Adds over 250 commands to BASIC. Popular in the UK and spawned several user groups. FORTH-64 Language [C64] (1985, Abacus Software) FORTH 79 with some FORTH 83 extensions. Includes full-screen editor, complete FORTH-style assembler, programming tools. Includes hires and lores graphics and sound words. Master FORTH [C64] (1986, MicroMotion) Follows the FORTH-83 standard; includes graphics system. Enhanced FORTH [C64] (1986, Accelerated Software) Follows FIG FORTH standard. geoFORTH [C64 GEOS] (© 1989 Nicholas Vrtis) Version of FIG FORTH which runs under GEOS. (the following are claimed to be doc files, but I was not able to connect) ftp://ftp.forth.org/pub/Forth/Archive/commodore64/geoforth.doc ftp://ftp.forth.org/pub/Forth/Compilers/native/misc/commodore64/geoforth.doc ftp://ftp.forth.org/pub/Forth/Compilers/native/misc/commodore64/geoforth.arc Laser Genius [C64] (Date unknown - before 1986) (David Hunter, Martin Lewis and Andrew Foord, Oasis Software) Assembler with syntax-checking editor. Monitor with over 70 commands included. Supports "the analyser" with intelligent breakpoints to slow or stop the execution of a program, controlled by a tiny subset of FORTH language commands. http://home.freeuk.net/markk/CBM/Laser_Genius.readme http://home.freeuk.net/markk/CBM/Laser_Genius.tar.gz -- Guy Macon, Electronics Engineer & Project Manager for hire. Remember Doc Brown from the _Back to the Future_ movies? Do you have an "impossible" engineering project that only someone like Doc Brown can solve? My resume is at http://www.guymacon.com/ Article: 101471 of comp.lang.forth Path: tunews.univie.ac.at!aconews-feed.univie.ac.at!newsfeed.wu-wien.ac.at!newsfeeder1.noc.eunet-ag.at!news.eunet.at!feed.news.tiscali.de!tiscali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!proxad.net!postnews2.google.com!not-for-mail From: astrobe@netcourrier.com (Astrobe) Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth Subject: Re: Forth family tree (was: The future of Forth) Date: 18 Jun 2004 08:52:41 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <774e24ad.0406171158.315004d4@posting.google.com> <2004Jun18.071304@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.251.92.82 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1087573961 28769 127.0.0.1 (18 Jun 2004 15:52:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 15:52:41 +0000 (UTC) Xref: tunews.univie.ac.at comp.lang.forth:101471 Implementation: 4IM Implements: itself Project-start: 2002-10 Contains-code-from: (nihil) Inspired-by: Pygmy Inspired-by: cmForth Reference: http://membres.lycos.fr/astrobe Release: 2002-10 Release: 2003-04 Release: 2003-06 Release: 2003-11 Release: 2004-01 Release: 2004-06 ( Just kiddin' ) Amicalement, Astrobe Article: 101502 of comp.lang.forth Path: tunews.univie.ac.at!aconews-feed.univie.ac.at!newsfeed.wu-wien.ac.at!newsfeed.utanet.at!news.glorb.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!ngpeer.news.aol.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail From: Krishna Myneni Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth Subject: Re: Forth family tree Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 21:32:29 -0700 Organization: CompuServe Interactive Services Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: <774e24ad.0406171158.315004d4@posting.google.com> <2004Jun18.071304@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: atl-tgn-yer-vty5.as.wcom.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ngspool-d02.news.aol.com 1087698332 26690 216.192.177.5 (20 Jun 2004 02:25:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 02:25:32 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7b) Gecko/20040316 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en In-Reply-To: <2004Jun18.071304@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> Xref: tunews.univie.ac.at comp.lang.forth:101502 Anton Ertl wrote: > ... > So maybe we should document the Forth family tree, too. I'll make a > start. ... > Here's an entry for Gforth (you don't need to be as elaborate as that, > but having dates would be helpful): > > Implementation: Gforth > Implements: ANS Forth > Project-start: 1992-07 > Contains-code-from: bigForth 1993 > Inspired-by: fig-Forth > Inspired-by: F83 > Reference: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/gforth/Docs-html/Origin.html > Release: 0.2 1996-12 > Release: 0.3 1997-04 > Release: 0.4 1998-12 > Release: 0.5 2000-09 > Release: 0.6 2003-03 > Reference: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/gforth/old/ > > - anton Implementation: kForth Implements: ANS Forth subset + special features (dynamic type checking, dynamically allocated dictionary, deferred execution) Project-start: 1995, as an embedded interpreter for the program xyplot Contains-code-from: No prior program. Inspired-by: LMI UR/Forth Reference: http://www.ccreweb.org/software/kforth/kforth.html Release: see http://www.ccreweb.org/software/kforth/revisions.html Reference: Forthwrite article, "Special Features of kForth", issues 116 and 117, 2002. Article: 101649 of comp.lang.forth Path: tunews.univie.ac.at!aconews-feed.univie.ac.at!newsfeed.wu-wien.ac.at!newsfeed.utanet.at!news.glorb.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.wispertel.com!news.wispertel.com.POSTED!not-for-mail NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 16:58:18 -0500 Message-ID: <40DC9FF8.4080903@whispertel.LoseTheH.net> Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 15:58:16 -0600 From: John Doty User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.0 (CK-MIT) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth Subject: Re: Forth family tree (was: The future of Forth) References: <774e24ad.0406171158.315004d4@posting.google.com> <2004Jun18.071304@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 39 NNTP-Posting-Host: 38.116.140.86 X-Trace: sv3-xcHFv0T/uNbrT1W8Miv4O2zl6LHJwNdETtG2Y3A0o1KCX8al0emqWvBEJ2NUaEeafO+BNkcam3nSe1S!DJIOaMrJOw49ASth+6iWOSkMGQ++aZi4i4z9UplBqG7qXOu8l2chX8zef2fO3RDYwGLrJ0w6bQq+!enE+D4Zwa+UnO0k3lbo= X-Complaints-To: abuse@wispertel.com X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@wispertel.com X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Xref: tunews.univie.ac.at comp.lang.forth:101649 Anton Ertl wrote: > So maybe we should document the Forth family tree, too. I'll make a > start. To avoid discussions of whether something constitutes a > separate language/dialect/variant/whatever, let's just document all > the implementations and standards there are. Just send me entries > like the one below, and I will try to create a family tree from that. A Forth clan from Cambridge, Massachusetts (I hope my memory is good here): Implementation: STOIC Implements: STOIC Project-start: 1975? Inspired-by: Moore's early 70's Forth Hardware: Data General Nova/Eclipse Author: Jonathan Sachs Note: Execution of compiled code at line end instead of word by word interpretation. Note: An early version was called "FIFTH" Implementation: LSE Implements: LSE Project-start: 1978? Inspired-by: STOIC Hardware: RCA 1802 Author: Robert Goeke Note: Early versions were called "STOIC", although the language is much simpler than Sachs' STOIC. Implementation: MAGIC/L Implements: MAGIC/L Project-start: 1978? Inspired-by: STOIC Author: Arnold Epstein Note: Incrementally-compiled PASCAL-like language based on a STOIC-like threaded code VM, and bootstrapped via an RPN layer. -jpd Article: 101820 of comp.lang.forth Path: tunews.univie.ac.at!aconews-feed.univie.ac.at!newsfeed.wu-wien.ac.at!newsfeed.utanet.at!in.100proofnews.com!in.100proofnews.com!cycny01.gnilink.net!cyclone1.gnilink.net!gnilink.net!wns13feed!worldnet.att.net!attbi_s01.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail Message-ID: <40E7406A.2110AAAB@comcast.net> From: m-coughlin X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth Subject: Re: Forth family tree (was: The future of Forth) References: <774e24ad.0406171158.315004d4@posting.google.com> <2004Jun18.071304@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <40DC9FF8.4080903@whispertel.LoseTheH.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 33 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.50.116 X-Complaints-To: abuse@comcast.net X-Trace: attbi_s01 1088897101 24.128.50.116 (Sat, 03 Jul 2004 23:25:01 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 23:25:01 GMT Organization: Comcast Online Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 23:25:02 GMT Xref: tunews.univie.ac.at comp.lang.forth:101820 John Doty wrote: [snip] > A Forth clan from Cambridge, Massachusetts (I hope my memory > is good here): > > Implementation: STOIC > Implements: STOIC > Project-start: 1975? > Inspired-by: Moore's early 70's Forth > Hardware: Data General Nova/Eclipse > Author: Jonathan Sachs > Note: Execution of compiled code at line end instead of word by > word interpretation. > Note: An early version was called "FIFTH" [snip] STOIC started out at MIT and Harvard in biomedical engineering in Boston. It was running on the Z80 and CP/M. Later it was ported to the DEC VAX under VMS by Roger Hauck and was distributed by DECUS. There used to be code available for download on the web. Here is a little snippet of it. http://www.znode51.de/pcwworld/l107/user_1/stoicfle.stc A more complete copy can be found if there are any CP/M archives left anywhere. -- Michael Coughlin m-coughlin@comcast.net Cambridge, MA USA Article: 101823 of comp.lang.forth Path: tunews.univie.ac.at!aconews-feed.univie.ac.at!newsfeed.wu-wien.ac.at!newsfeed.utanet.at!news.glorb.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.wispertel.com!news.wispertel.com.POSTED!not-for-mail NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 22:03:56 -0500 Message-ID: <40E7739A.2000906@whispertel.LoseTheH.net> Date: Sat, 03 Jul 2004 21:03:54 -0600 From: John Doty User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.0 (CK-MIT) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth Subject: Re: Forth family tree (was: The future of Forth) References: <774e24ad.0406171158.315004d4@posting.google.com> <2004Jun18.071304@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <40DC9FF8.4080903@whispertel.LoseTheH.net> <40E7406A.2110AAAB@comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 21 NNTP-Posting-Host: 38.116.140.86 X-Trace: sv3-H14a/KpvnqGhNGAB4S3n6iByfoA6f6v04u88miN/m+1TVDk5+qK63t/QnqvsHDEIsQU0YUW8OsstevC!EndBEqMsG9/KOiuJOExlLxCqmxFU3rKmEISwYGe2mOftWdwnKKwAnwv4uDD8MeHSyFYbuDtZ/jUp!CPnBDHEfbZKCQwx2X7g= X-Complaints-To: abuse@wispertel.com X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@wispertel.com X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Xref: tunews.univie.ac.at comp.lang.forth:101823 m-coughlin wrote: > STOIC started out at MIT and Harvard in biomedical > engineering in Boston. Its first application was in biomedical engineering, but Jon Sachs started working on it when he was the programmer for the SAS-3 x-ray astronomy spacecraft at MIT (I was there: Jon's working notebook included all of the info he could find on Chuck Moore's Forth). > It was running on the Z80 and CP/M. Later > it was ported to the DEC VAX under VMS by Roger Hauck and was > distributed by DECUS. The original hardware (mid '70's) was Data General stuff. The CP/M port must have been later. I know nothing of the CP/M port, nor of Roger's VAX port, although I got to know Roger later. Unfortunately, Roger has passed away. -jpd Article: 101650 of comp.lang.forth Path: tunews.univie.ac.at!aconews-feed.univie.ac.at!newsfeed.wu-wien.ac.at!newsfeed.utanet.at!news.glorb.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.wispertel.com!news.wispertel.com.POSTED!not-for-mail NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 16:58:18 -0500 Message-ID: <40DC9FF8.4080903@whispertel.LoseTheH.net> Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 15:58:16 -0600 From: John Doty User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.0 (CK-MIT) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth Subject: Re: Forth family tree (was: The future of Forth) References: <774e24ad.0406171158.315004d4@posting.google.com> <2004Jun18.071304@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 39 NNTP-Posting-Host: 38.116.140.86 X-Trace: sv3-xcHFv0T/uNbrT1W8Miv4O2zl6LHJwNdETtG2Y3A0o1KCX8al0emqWvBEJ2NUaEeafO+BNkcam3nSe1S!DJIOaMrJOw49ASth+6iWOSkMGQ++aZi4i4z9UplBqG7qXOu8l2chX8zef2fO3RDYwGLrJ0w6bQq+!enE+D4Zwa+UnO0k3lbo= X-Complaints-To: abuse@wispertel.com X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@wispertel.com X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.1 Xref: tunews.univie.ac.at comp.lang.forth:101650 Anton Ertl wrote: > So maybe we should document the Forth family tree, too. I'll make a > start. To avoid discussions of whether something constitutes a > separate language/dialect/variant/whatever, let's just document all > the implementations and standards there are. Just send me entries > like the one below, and I will try to create a family tree from that. A Forth clan from Cambridge, Massachusetts (I hope my memory is good here): Implementation: STOIC Implements: STOIC Project-start: 1975? Inspired-by: Moore's early 70's Forth Hardware: Data General Nova/Eclipse Author: Jonathan Sachs Note: Execution of compiled code at line end instead of word by word interpretation. Note: An early version was called "FIFTH" Implementation: LSE Implements: LSE Project-start: 1978? Inspired-by: STOIC Hardware: RCA 1802 Author: Robert Goeke Note: Early versions were called "STOIC", although the language is much simpler than Sachs' STOIC. Implementation: MAGIC/L Implements: MAGIC/L Project-start: 1978? Inspired-by: STOIC Author: Arnold Epstein Note: Incrementally-compiled PASCAL-like language based on a STOIC-like threaded code VM, and bootstrapped via an RPN layer. -jpd Article: 102283 of comp.lang.forth Path: tunews.univie.ac.at!aconews-feed.univie.ac.at!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.vel.net!news.vel.net.POSTED!not-for-mail NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 18:53:38 -0500 Reply-To: "Elizabeth D Rather" From: "Elizabeth D Rather" Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth References: <774e24ad.0406171158.315004d4@posting.google.com> <2004Jun18.071304@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <2004Aug2.202627@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> Subject: Re: Forth family tree (was: The future of Forth) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 16:57:40 -0700 Organization: FORTH, Inc. X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: Lines: 63 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.182.228.10 X-Trace: sv3-CZhJAtWrqu4UClBNgzm/EzI9/SpAuTKHG0kKx/ZaP2CzY4YX9rh7uxMgUjNFvsuHmaMDyKEeFq9Vuen!GMYvYIKdWwOhh0s/gc+LZBJDiOT1nq8P2wzhhcYr8Tb5pk3u4qDwc1i+FDTqFQMaTA== X-Complaints-To: abuse@vel.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@vel.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.13 Xref: tunews.univie.ac.at comp.lang.forth:102283 "Anton Ertl" wrote in message news:2004Aug2.202627@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at... > anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) writes (on June 18th): > >So maybe we should document the Forth family tree, too. I'll make a > >start. To avoid discussions of whether something constitutes a > >separate language/dialect/variant/whatever, let's just document all > >the implementations and standards there are. Just send me entries > >like the one below, and I will try to create a family tree from that. > > Ok, the first draft of the family tree can be found at > > http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/family-tree/ > > This incorporates all the information that has been posted here, plus > the pedigree information of Gforth from ... > Now for the input: Here you see the description of an implementation > and where it is coming from (with all three kinds of edges): > > Implementation Gforth > Gforth implements Forth94 > BigForth begot Gforth > figForth inspired Gforth > F83 inspired Gforth > > If your Implementation has a name containing spaces, dashes, or > somesuch, you have to define the implementation like this: > > s" LMI UR-Forth" name-implementation urforth > > Send me any additional historical information (in particular, dates) > in comments (starting with "\ "). Good idea! Here's a FORTH, Inc. compilation (assuming I've guessed right about the usage of these words): Implementation Forth \ NRAO 1972 Forth implements miniFORTH \ FORTH, Inc. 1973-5 Forth implements microFORTH \ FORTH, Inc. 1977 miniFORTH begot polyFORTH \ FORTH, Inc., approx. 1980 microFORTH inspired chipFORTH \ FORTH, Inc. & Computer Solutions, mid-80's polyFORTH implements chipFORTH polyFORTH begot SwiftForth \ 1996-7 chipFORTH inspired SwiftX SwiftForth implements SwiftX \ 1997 Cheers, Elizabeth -- ================================================== Elizabeth D. Rather (US & Canada) 800-55-FORTH FORTH Inc. +1 310-491-3356 5155 W. Rosecrans Ave. #1018 Fax: +1 310-978-9454 Hawthorne, CA 90250 http://www.forth.com "Forth-based products and Services for real-time applications since 1973." ================================================== Article: 102293 of comp.lang.forth Path: tunews.univie.ac.at!aconews-feed.univie.ac.at!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!newsread.com!newsstand.newsread.com!POSTED.monger.newsread.com!not-for-mail From: Doug Hoffman Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth Subject: Re: Forth family tree (was: The future of Forth) References: <774e24ad.0406171158.315004d4@posting.google.com> <2004Jun18.071304@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <2004Aug2.202627@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> User-Agent: MT-NewsWatcher/3.4 (PPC Mac OS X) Message-ID: Lines: 19 Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 09:30:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.241.134.182 X-Complaints-To: Abuse Role , We Care X-Trace: monger.newsread.com 1091525401 207.241.134.182 (Tue, 03 Aug 2004 05:30:01 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 05:30:01 EDT Organization: Journey Communications (journey.net) Xref: tunews.univie.ac.at comp.lang.forth:102293 Implementation MacForth \ Creative Solutions 1984, First Forth for Mac MacForth begot MacForth+ \ Creative Solutions 1987? Supported new Roms MacForth+ begot PowerMacForth \ MegaWolf Date? SmalltalkandForth inspired Neon \ Kriya Systems 1985 Charles Duff OOP Neon begat Yerk \ Bob Loewenstein Date? Controlling Observatory telescope Neon inspired Mops \ Mike Hore Date? Subroutine Threading, Optimizing Compiler Mops begat PowerMops \ Mike Hore Date? PowerPC native code, OSX Native Code Date? Implementation MachForth \ Company? Date? Subroutine Threading Flint inspired Pocket Forth \ Chris Heilman Date? Extreme Minimalism Incomplete but better than nothing (Macintosh). Regards, -Doug Article: 102296 of comp.lang.forth Path: tunews.univie.ac.at!aconews-feed.univie.ac.at!newscore.univie.ac.at!195.185.185.44.MISMATCH!feed.news.tiscali.de!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!carbon.eu.sun.com!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail From: "Alex McDonald" Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth Subject: Re: Forth family tree (was: The future of Forth) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 11:37:25 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 42 Message-ID: References: <774e24ad.0406171158.315004d4@posting.google.com> <2004Jun18.071304@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <2004Aug2.202627@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-122-9-134.in-addr.btopenworld.com X-Trace: hercules.btinternet.com 1091533045 2100 213.122.9.134 (3 Aug 2004 11:37:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 11:37:25 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Xref: tunews.univie.ac.at comp.lang.forth:102296 "Anton Ertl" wrote in message news:2004Aug2.202627@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at... > anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) writes (on June 18th): > >So maybe we should document the Forth family tree, too. I'll make a > >start. To avoid discussions of whether something constitutes a > >separate language/dialect/variant/whatever, let's just document all > >the implementations and standards there are. Just send me entries > >like the one below, and I will try to create a family tree from that. ===snipped > > Send me any additional historical information (in particular, dates) > in comments (starting with "\ "). > Implementation F-PC \ ? nothing known by me; TJZ public domain fig-FORTH begot F-PC \ ? Implementation TCOM \ ? nothing known by me; TJZ F-PC begot TCOM Implementation Win32Forth \ Andrew McKewan, Robert Smith, Y.T. Lin, Andy Corsack, Jim Schneider; mid 1994; WinNT Unknown inspired Win32Forth \ Andrew McKewan; 1994; ? anyone know? F-83? F-PC? Win32Forth implements Forth94 F-PC begot Win32Forth \ Tom Zimmer; 1994 F83 inspired Win32Forth \ Andrew McKewan; 1996; meta compilation Yerk inspired Win32Forth \ Andrew McKewan; 1996; OO support Entries above depend on Doug Hoffman's additions. As to inspired; TJZ added 1000s of words -- most forths inspired him I guess. -- Regards Alex McDonald Andrew McKewan, Robert Smith and I were the primary contributors, followed by Y.T. Lin, and Andy Corsack. Later I talked Jim Schneider into writing a full 486 assembler, which he donated, completing the system. Article: 102308 of comp.lang.forth Path: tunews.univie.ac.at!aconews-feed.univie.ac.at!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.vel.net!news.vel.net.POSTED!not-for-mail NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 13:11:06 -0500 Reply-To: "Elizabeth D Rather" From: "Elizabeth D Rather" Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth References: <774e24ad.0406171158.315004d4@posting.google.com> <2004Jun18.071304@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <2004Aug2.202627@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <2004Aug3.072507@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> Subject: Re: Forth family tree (was: The future of Forth) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 11:15:13 -0700 Organization: FORTH, Inc. X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: Lines: 89 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.182.228.10 X-Trace: sv3-qj39JU7ifWd2krzHLfrbppYb8WnsvOhDDXTkhjiZ1sZrjEooI0WV51QfLgJs70PFcBr9txkwCdQ2rNY!o2BKGYGDZSHx63d7H0j+C6BO4iAnh78jfAZoVKCDGetXpepoOdQDewY/R1oTOJ6Evw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@vel.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@vel.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.13 Xref: tunews.univie.ac.at comp.lang.forth:102308 "Anton Ertl" wrote in message news:2004Aug3.072507@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at... > Thank you. You apparently guessed wrongly for IMPLEMENTS. It > should be used as: > > implements > > but I have now renamed IMPLEMENTS to CONFORMS-TO, which is hopefully > less confusing. > > And here are explanations for the other words: > > \ a significant amount of code from implementation1 was originally > \ in implementation2 > begot > > \ word specs from something1 were implemented/standardized in something2 > inspired Hmm, I was guessing that "inspired" meant concepts in 1 were implemented in 2. > What did you want to express with IMPLEMENTS? That 1 was used to develop 2. polyFORTH was used to develop the host side of chipFORTH, and SwiftForth was used as the basis for the host side of SwiftX. > In any case, this is how I adapted your data: > > \ from Elizabeth Rather > \ Implementation Forth \ NRAO 1972 > \ Forth implements miniFORTH \ FORTH, Inc. 1973-5 > \ Forth implements microFORTH \ FORTH, Inc. 1977 > Implementation miniFORTH > Implementation polyFORTH > miniFORTH begot polyFORTH \ FORTH, Inc., approx. 1980 Correct date for polyFORTH is 1982. > Implementation chipFORTH > microFORTH inspired chipFORTH \ FORTH, Inc. & Computer Solutions, mid-80's > \ polyFORTH implements chipFORTH > Implementation SwiftForth > SwiftForth conforms-to Forth94 > polyFORTH begot SwiftForth \ 1996-7 > Implementation SwiftX > chipFORTH inspired SwiftX > \ SwiftForth implements SwiftX \ 1997 > > Of course, this misses connections between the > miniForth-polyForth-SwiftForth chain and the > FORTH-microFORTH-chipFORTH-SwiftX chain, I had assumed that "begot" was intended to represent these generational relationships. > ...and also some informations > about standards conformance (I guess there have been versions of > polyFORTH conforming to Forth-79, Forth-83, and ANS Forth, but I would > like your confirmation for this). As far as standards conformance is concerned, Forth-79 was such an incomplete and contradictory "standard" that I doubt anyone can fully claim conformance to it. polyFORTH was very close to Forth-83, and had an optional compatibility suite for the non-conforming bits. This unhappy state of affairs came about because Forth-83 was done in two meetings; the design of pF was finalized between the first and second, and conformed to all the "firm decisions" taken in the first meeting. But some of those were reversed in the 2nd meeting, and that created too many incompatibilities for us to follow. SwiftForth conforms to ANS Forth. Cheers, Elizabeth -- ================================================== Elizabeth D. Rather (US & Canada) 800-55-FORTH FORTH Inc. +1 310-491-3356 5155 W. Rosecrans Ave. #1018 Fax: +1 310-978-9454 Hawthorne, CA 90250 http://www.forth.com "Forth-based products and Services for real-time applications since 1973." ================================================== Article: 102298 of comp.lang.forth Path: tunews.univie.ac.at!aconews-feed.univie.ac.at!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-fra1.dfn.de!news2.telebyte.nl!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!news.mediascape.de!zen.net.uk!demorgan.zen.co.uk!194.72.9.35.MISMATCH!news-peer1!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail From: "George Hubert" Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth Subject: Re: Forth family tree (was: The future of Forth) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 12:34:47 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 56 Message-ID: References: <774e24ad.0406171158.315004d4@posting.google.com> <2004Jun18.071304@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <2004Aug2.202627@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: host81-130-203-160.in-addr.btopenworld.com X-Trace: sparta.btinternet.com 1091536487 10265 81.130.203.160 (3 Aug 2004 12:34:47 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 12:34:47 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Xref: tunews.univie.ac.at comp.lang.forth:102298 "Alex McDonald" wrote in message news:centdl$21k$1@hercules.btinternet.com... > "Anton Ertl" wrote in message > news:2004Aug2.202627@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at... > > anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) writes (on June 18th): -- > > Implementation F-PC \ ? nothing known by me; TJZ public domain > fig-FORTH begot F-PC \ ? > > Implementation TCOM \ ? nothing known by me; TJZ > F-PC begot TCOM I think TCOM was just a target compiler running under F-PC for producing .COM based executables, rather than a seperate Forth > Implementation Win32Forth \ Andrew McKewan, Robert Smith, Y.T. Lin, Andy > Corsack, Jim Schneider; mid 1994; WinNT > Unknown inspired Win32Forth \ Andrew McKewan; 1994; ? anyone know? F-83? > F-PC? I would say F-PC and FIG > Win32Forth implements Forth94 > F-PC begot Win32Forth \ Tom Zimmer; 1994 > F83 inspired Win32Forth \ Andrew McKewan; 1996; meta compilation I think it was TCOM that inspired/begot the meta compiler > Yerk inspired Win32Forth \ Andrew McKewan; 1996; OO support and the Locals ( I think the date should 1994 the same as the main system ). > > Entries above depend on Doug Hoffman's additions. > > As to inspired; TJZ added 1000s of words -- most forths inspired him I > guess. Most of those words were from F-PC and his earlier FIG systems IIRC > > -- > Regards > Alex McDonald > Andrew McKewan, Robert Smith and I were the primary contributors, followed > by Y.T. Lin, and Andy Corsack. Later I talked Jim Schneider into writing a > full 486 assembler, which he donated, completing the system. > George Hubert Article: 102323 of comp.lang.forth From: stephenXXX@INVALID.mpeltd.demon.co.uk (Stephen Pelc) Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth Subject: Re: Forth family tree (was: The future of Forth) Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 08:58:13 GMT Organization: MPE Lines: 17 Message-ID: <4110a43d.591140234@192.168.0.1> References: <774e24ad.0406171158.315004d4@posting.google.com> <2004Jun18.071304@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <2004Aug2.202627@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> Reply-To: stephenXXX@INVALID.mpeltd.demon.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: mpeltd.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1091611960 8942 158.152.46.91 (4 Aug 2004 09:32:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 09:32:40 +0000 (UTC) To: comp.lang.forth X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: tunews.univie.ac.at!aconews-feed.univie.ac.at!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeedt0.toon.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.zanker.org!news.amigo.co.uk!news.clara.net!wagner.news.clara.net!194.159.246.34.MISMATCH!peer-uk.news.demon.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mpeltd.demon.co.uk!anonymous Xref: tunews.univie.ac.at comp.lang.forth:102323 On Tue, 3 Aug 2004 11:37:25 +0000 (UTC), "Alex McDonald" wrote: >Implementation Win32Forth \ Andrew McKewan, Robert Smith, Y.T. Lin, Andy >Corsack, Jim Schneider; mid 1994; WinNT >Unknown inspired Win32Forth \ Andrew McKewan; 1994; ? anyone know? F-83? MPE_ProForth_for_Windows_v1.0 inspired Win32Forth \ Right down to the bugs in the assembler Stephen -- Stephen Pelc, stephenXXX@INVALID.mpeltd.demon.co.uk MicroProcessor Engineering Ltd - More Real, Less Time 133 Hill Lane, Southampton SO15 5AF, England tel: +44 (0)23 8063 1441, fax: +44 (0)23 8033 9691 web: http://www.mpeltd.demon.co.uk - free VFX Forth downloads Article: 102344 of comp.lang.forth Path: tunews.univie.ac.at!aconews-feed.univie.ac.at!newscore.univie.ac.at!195.185.185.44.MISMATCH!feed.news.tiscali.de!tiscali!newsfeed1.ip.tiscali.net!proxad.net!proxad.net!194.159.246.34.MISMATCH!peer-uk.news.demon.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mpeltd.demon.co.uk!anonymous From: stephenXXX@INVALID.mpeltd.demon.co.uk (Stephen Pelc) Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth Subject: Re: Forth family tree (was: The future of Forth) Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 18:02:38 GMT Organization: MPE Lines: 106 Message-ID: <41112430.623894828@192.168.0.1> References: <774e24ad.0406171158.315004d4@posting.google.com> <2004Jun18.071304@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <2004Aug2.202627@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> Reply-To: stephenXXX@INVALID.mpeltd.demon.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: mpeltd.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1091646057 18839 158.152.46.91 (4 Aug 2004 19:00:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 19:00:57 +0000 (UTC) To: comp.lang.forth X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Xref: tunews.univie.ac.at comp.lang.forth:102344 Here are the MPE systems from memory. Some dates may be a little approximate. \ Although it was no formal standard, FIG Forth was \ influential enough to deserve categorisation as a \ standard ??? ??? s" FIG Forth" standard ForthFIG 1983 ?? implementation WorkForth \ circa 1983 \ The first hosted MPE Forth for CPM, MSDOS and so on. \ These were 16 bit ITC Forths as far as I can remember. WorkForth implements ForthFIG figForth inspired WorkForth 1985 ?? inplementation PowerForth \ Our first Forth 83 product and the basis of a chassis \ which lasted until ANS Forth arrived. 16 bit DTC DOS system \ with TOS cached. PowerForth implements Forth83 WorkForth inspired PowerForth WorkForth begot PowerForth 1987 ?? implementation ModularForth \ A derivative of PowerForth with multiple 64k modules. ModularForth implements Forth83 PowerForth inspired ModularForth PowerForth begot ModularForth 1988 ?? implementation GemForth \ 32 bit version for the Atari ST GemForth implements Forth83 PowerForth inspired GemForth PowerForth begot GemForth 1988 ?? s" ProForth for DOS" name-implementation PFD \ 32 bit version for DOS PFD implements Forth83 PowerForth inspired PFD PowerForth begot PFD 1991 ?? s" ProForth for Windows" name-implementation PFW \ 32 bit version for Windows. Released almost simultaneously \ with Windows NT v3.1. Version 1.x was soon replaced by \ version 2.x. PFW implements Forth83 PFD inspired PFW PFD begot PFW 1978 ?? s" UCSD Pascal" name-implementation Pcode \ for reference 1990 ?? implementation AnsiC \ for reference 1993 ?? implementation SENDIT \ A tokenised Forth VM for byte code interpreters on embedded \ network systems. Produced as a deliverable for the EU SENDIT \ project, it had both C and Forth compilers. Forth83 inspired SENDIT AnsiC inspired SENDIT Pcode inspired SENDIT Forth83 begot SENDIT 1996 ?? implementation OTA \ A SENDIT derivative for payment terminals with C and Forth \ compilers. The project is owned by Europay International \ (now part of MasterCard). The tool chains were mostly \ developedby MPE. The run-time kernels were mostly developed \ by Forth Inc (in Forth), a few by MPE (in Forth) and the C \ kernel was written by Rowley Associates as an MPE \ subcontractor. OTA implements Forth94 SENDIT inspired OTA SENDIT begot VFXW 1997 ?? implementation Practical \ Another EU research project in which MPE worked on \ JIT compilers for tokenised systems. These formed the \ basis of the VFX code generator. SENDIT inspired Practical SENDIT begot Practical 1998 ?? s" VFX Forth for Windows" name-implementation VFXW \ 32 bit version for Windows. Only the third Forth chassis \ that MPE has written. A native code ANS system with a \ very aggressive code generator. Developed simultaneously \ with the VFX cross compilers below. VFXW implements Forth94 PFW inspired VFXW PFW begot VFXW 1998 ?? s" VFX Cross Compilers" name-implementation XVFX \ The VFX code generator has been ported to produce code \ for seven different CPU architectures: i32, H8S, ARM, 68xxx, \ Coldfire, 68HC12/9S12, MSP430. Several other CPUs have been \ prototyped. XVFX implements Forth94 Practical inspired XVFX PFW inspired XVFX PFW begot XVFX Stephen -- Stephen Pelc, stephenXXX@INVALID.mpeltd.demon.co.uk MicroProcessor Engineering Ltd - More Real, Less Time 133 Hill Lane, Southampton SO15 5AF, England tel: +44 (0)23 8063 1441, fax: +44 (0)23 8033 9691 web: http://www.mpeltd.demon.co.uk - free VFX Forth downloads Article: 102333 of comp.lang.forth Path: tunews.univie.ac.at!aconews-feed.univie.ac.at!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.zanker.org!dedekind.zen.co.uk!zen.net.uk!demorgan.zen.co.uk!194.72.9.35.MISMATCH!news-peer1!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail From: "Alex McDonald" Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth Subject: Re: Forth family tree (was: The future of Forth) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 15:25:03 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: <774e24ad.0406171158.315004d4@posting.google.com> <2004Jun18.071304@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <2004Aug2.202627@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <4110a43d.591140234@192.168.0.1> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-122-80-153.in-addr.btopenworld.com X-Trace: sparta.btinternet.com 1091633103 11238 213.122.80.153 (4 Aug 2004 15:25:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 15:25:03 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Xref: tunews.univie.ac.at comp.lang.forth:102333 "Stephen Pelc" wrote in message news:4110a43d.591140234@192.168.0.1... > On Tue, 3 Aug 2004 11:37:25 +0000 (UTC), "Alex McDonald" > wrote: > > >Implementation Win32Forth \ Andrew McKewan, Robert Smith, Y.T. Lin, Andy > >Corsack, Jim Schneider; mid 1994; WinNT > >Unknown inspired Win32Forth \ Andrew McKewan; 1994; ? anyone know? F-83? > > MPE_ProForth_for_Windows_v1.0 inspired Win32Forth > \ Right down to the bugs in the assembler Begot? (rather than contributed major parts to, which is what I think Anton means?) TJZ's notes on the development of W32F make it clear that the kernel was written in assembler for TASM (Borland) by Andrew McKewan, and that he (TJZ) ported quite large chunks of F-PC to it, after rejecting the only 32bit NT version available on the market at the time (was it MPE ProForth? The date was before mid 1994). The assembler was written separately by Jim Schneider & completed later (dates in 1994 & 1995); TJZ talks of having to persuade Jim to complete the assembler. Not having seen MPE ProForth for Windows v1.0, nor it's assembler, I can't comment on its provenance, or the commonality of its source & bugs. It's also used by the Russian SP-FORTH group. -- Regards Alex McDonald Article: 102354 of comp.lang.forth Path: tunews.univie.ac.at!aconews-feed.univie.ac.at!newscore.univie.ac.at!uninett.no!newsfeed1.eu.ignite.net!newsr1.ipcore.viaginterkom.de!news-peer1!btnet-feed5!btnet!news.btopenworld.com!not-for-mail From: "Alex McDonald" Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth Subject: Re: Forth family tree (was: The future of Forth) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 07:24:44 +0000 (UTC) Organization: BT Openworld Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <774e24ad.0406171158.315004d4@posting.google.com> <2004Jun18.071304@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <2004Aug2.202627@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <4110a43d.591140234@192.168.0.1> <4111705f.643397734@192.168.0.1> NNTP-Posting-Host: dial81-131-232-215.in-addr.btopenworld.com X-Trace: titan.btinternet.com 1091690684 2117 81.131.232.215 (5 Aug 2004 07:24:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news-complaints@lists.btinternet.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 07:24:44 +0000 (UTC) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Xref: tunews.univie.ac.at comp.lang.forth:102354 "Stephen Pelc" wrote in message news:4111705f.643397734@192.168.0.1... > On Wed, 4 Aug 2004 15:25:03 +0000 (UTC), "Alex McDonald" > wrote: > > >TJZ's notes on the development of W32F make it clear that the kernel was > >written in assembler for TASM (Borland) by Andrew McKewan, and that he (TJZ) > >ported quite large chunks of F-PC to it, after rejecting the only 32bit NT > >version available on the market at the time (was it MPE ProForth? The date > >was before mid 1994). > > Their employer at the time purchased two copies of ProForth 1.0 with > full source code. They wanted some changes done free, and MPE wanted > to be paid. The rest is history. The cost to the employer and the > time spent was far greater than our quote. > The question of cost is as may be. You appear to be implying that Andrew McKewan and/or Tom Zimmer literally copied parts of ProForth? -- Regards Alex McDonald Article: 102364 of comp.lang.forth Path: tunews.univie.ac.at!aconews-feed.univie.ac.at!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-fra1.dfn.de!newsfeed.hanau.net!newsfeed.vmunix.org!npeer.de.kpn-eurorings.net!proxad.net!194.159.246.34.MISMATCH!peer-uk.news.demon.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mpeltd.demon.co.uk!anonymous From: stephenXXX@INVALID.mpeltd.demon.co.uk (Stephen Pelc) Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth Subject: Re: Forth family tree (was: The future of Forth) Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 12:38:33 GMT Organization: MPE Lines: 33 Message-ID: <41122654.689978750@192.168.0.1> References: <774e24ad.0406171158.315004d4@posting.google.com> <2004Jun18.071304@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <2004Aug2.202627@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <4110a43d.591140234@192.168.0.1> <4111705f.643397734@192.168.0.1> Reply-To: stephenXXX@INVALID.mpeltd.demon.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: mpeltd.demon.co.uk X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1091718052 22870 158.152.46.91 (5 Aug 2004 15:00:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 15:00:52 +0000 (UTC) To: comp.lang.forth X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Xref: tunews.univie.ac.at comp.lang.forth:102364 On Thu, 5 Aug 2004 07:24:44 +0000 (UTC), "Alex McDonald" wrote: >The question of cost is as may be. You appear to be implying that Andrew >McKewan and/or Tom Zimmer literally copied parts of ProForth? I didn't say that. Many of the not so good design decisions of PFW1.0 are present in W32F. These decisions were removed in PFW2.x. Most of the features of PFW1.x for which source was provided are in W32F. Features for which source was not provided are not present in W32F. Having the source code for an existing implementation makes life *very* much easier. VFX Forth is a new chassis from the ground up. Source code for certain parts of it, e.g. the optimiser, is only supplied under an NDA with some restrictions as to use - "competing products" are mentioned. We learn from our mistakes. Bringing W32F up to date is a worthy goal. However, IMHO, the chassis is simply obsolete. Eventually you have to throw an old favourite away and bite the bullet of a new chassis. Stephen -- Stephen Pelc, stephenXXX@INVALID.mpeltd.demon.co.uk MicroProcessor Engineering Ltd - More Real, Less Time 133 Hill Lane, Southampton SO15 5AF, England tel: +44 (0)23 8063 1441, fax: +44 (0)23 8033 9691 web: http://www.mpeltd.demon.co.uk - free VFX Forth downloads Article: 102343 of comp.lang.forth Path: tunews.univie.ac.at!aconews-feed.univie.ac.at!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!border2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.vel.net!news.vel.net.POSTED!not-for-mail NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 13:57:09 -0500 Reply-To: "Elizabeth D Rather" From: "Elizabeth D Rather" Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth References: <774e24ad.0406171158.315004d4@posting.google.com> <2004Jun18.071304@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <2004Aug2.202627@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <2004Aug3.072507@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <2004Aug4.151139@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> Subject: Re: Forth family tree (was: The future of Forth) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 12:01:11 -0700 Organization: FORTH, Inc. X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 Message-ID: Lines: 61 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.182.228.10 X-Trace: sv3-G9GBPHIvUk0GiHa1Y8bvh/QmPYhZnPEfjOpftD574hNGur0fEzTsk+CAzHfF8GrVQYvMu6X76OA01j9!n31IYDRxCNedeEb9tlRhuLtoTny5ptiHss6RjULpsvp1GNCY1uDOIlHBvZOSR2xkMw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@vel.net X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@vel.net X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.13 Xref: tunews.univie.ac.at comp.lang.forth:102343 "Anton Ertl" wrote in message news:2004Aug4.151139@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at... ... > >> What did you want to express with IMPLEMENTS? > > > >That 1 was used to develop 2. polyFORTH was used to develop the host side > >of chipFORTH, and SwiftForth was used as the basis for the host side of > >SwiftX. > > Hmm, I assume this means that significant code of polyForth is in > chipForth, and of SwiftForth is in SwiftX, so I added some begot > edges. One way of looking at it is that the chipFORTH host is a polyFORTH application, and similarly the SwiftX host is a SwiftForth application. > Looking at your HOPL-II paper again, I don't see any mention of > miniForth there; also microForth was presented there are an ordinary > Forth system (and direct predecessor of fig-Forth) rather than a > cross-development system like SwiftX (if I understand SwiftX > correctly) and presumably chipFORTH. "miniFORTH" is the product name given to the Forth we developed in the early days of FORTH, Inc. We just called it "Forth" until we developed microFORTH, which was so different we needed names for both. > >> Of course, this misses connections between the > >> miniForth-polyForth-SwiftForth chain and the > >> FORTH-microFORTH-chipFORTH-SwiftX chain, > > > >I had assumed that "begot" was intended to represent these generational > >relationships. > > I don't thing that "generational relationship" is precise enough or > widely enough applicable to be useful for this chart. What I'm trying to convey there is an evolving sequence of systems aimed at the same basic niche. miniFORTH, polyFORTH, and SwiftForth are all intended for minicomputers or PCs where the development environment is integrated with the application. microFORTH, chipFORTH, and SwiftX are oriented toward embedded microcontrollers (and, as you note, the latter two are cross-development systems). Cheers, Elizabeth -- ================================================== Elizabeth D. Rather (US & Canada) 800-55-FORTH FORTH Inc. +1 310-491-3356 5155 W. Rosecrans Ave. #1018 Fax: +1 310-978-9454 Hawthorne, CA 90250 http://www.forth.com "Forth-based products and Services for real-time applications since 1973." ================================================== Article: 102411 of comp.lang.forth Path: tunews.univie.ac.at!aconews-feed.univie.ac.at!newscore.univie.ac.at!195.185.185.44.MISMATCH!feed.news.tiscali.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!oleane.net!oleane!freenix!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail From: Guy Macon Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth Subject: Re: Forth family tree Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2004 13:01:52 -0700 Organization: Electrical / Electronics Engineer Resume: http://www.guymacon.com Message-ID: <10hd1ote4q22pe2@news.supernews.com> References: <774e24ad.0406171158.315004d4@posting.google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 24 Xref: tunews.univie.ac.at comp.lang.forth:102411 I found this today while searching fopr Forth versions that can act as standalone operating systems. I am not sure how it fits into the tree. "RetroForth is a public_domain implementation of the Forth programming language. Originally written in 1998 by Tom Novelli, and maintained by Charles Childers since 2002. "RetroForth [since version 3] is modeled after CMforth, Colorforth, Eforth and Pygmy. It uses some, but not all, of Chuck Moore's newer ideas. It's clean, elegant, and tiny - only about 20k source/10k binary for Linux." (Latest version: January 2004 RetroForth release 6.20) http://www.retroforth.org/ http://retroforth.org/fwiki/ http://www.bebits.com/app/3943/ http://retroforth.org/fwiki/?id=history -- Guy Macon Article: 102510 of comp.lang.forth Path: tunews.univie.ac.at!aconews-feed.univie.ac.at!newsfeed.wu-wien.ac.at!newsfeeder1.noc.eunet-ag.at!news.eunet.at!feed.news.tiscali.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!fr.ip.ndsoftware.net!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!newsfeeder.wxs.nl!textnews.wxs.nl!not-for-mail From: Jos van de Ven Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth Subject: Re: Forth family tree (was: The future of Forth) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 22:17:15 +0200 Organization: Planet Internet Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <774e24ad.0406171158.315004d4@posting.google.com> <2004Jun18.071304@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <2004Aug2.202627@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <41112430.623894828@192.168.0.1> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip51cec706.speed.planet.nl Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: reader13.wxs.nl 1092514630 2321 81.206.199.6 (14 Aug 2004 20:17:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@planet.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Aug 2004 20:17:10 GMT X-Newsreader: 4ePost v1.10 compiled with Win32Forth Xref: tunews.univie.ac.at comp.lang.forth:102510 Stephen wrote: > Here are the MPE systems from memory. Some dates may be a > little approximate. > 1988 ?? implementation GemForth > \ 32 bit version for the Atari ST > GemForth implements Forth83 > PowerForth inspired GemForth > PowerForth begot GemForth The GemForth I used was build on UNIX-FORTH UNIX-FORTH was written by Mitch Bradley. Jos == 4ePost: 368 bytes in mail. Elapsed time to buffer: .001423 sec. Article: 102843 of comp.lang.forth Path: tunews.univie.ac.at!aconews-feed.univie.ac.at!newsfeed.wu-wien.ac.at!newsfeeder1.noc.eunet-ag.at!news.eunet.at!feed.news.tiscali.de!blackbush.cw.net!newsfeed.stueberl.de!proxad.net!feeder2-1.proxad.net!news14-e.free.fr!not-for-mail From: "Bruno Gauthier" Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth References: <774e24ad.0406171158.315004d4@posting.google.com> <2004Jun18.071304@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <2004Aug2.202627@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <41112430.623894828@192.168.0.1> Subject: Re: Forth family tree (was: The future of Forth) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:14:03 +0200 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original Lines: 25 Message-ID: <413584b1$0$28841$636a15ce@news.free.fr> Organization: Guest of ProXad - France NNTP-Posting-Date: 01 Sep 2004 10:13:37 MEST NNTP-Posting-Host: 82.224.119.22 X-Trace: 1094026417 news14-e.free.fr 28841 82.224.119.22:1363 X-Complaints-To: abuse@proxad.net Xref: tunews.univie.ac.at comp.lang.forth:102843 Hi, on Atari St , that was not gemforth but Forthmacs. Gem was the OS bruno "Jos van de Ven" a écrit dans le message de news: cfls06$28h$1@reader13.wxs.nl... > > Stephen wrote: >> Here are the MPE systems from memory. Some dates may be a >> little approximate. > >> 1988 ?? implementation GemForth >> \ 32 bit version for the Atari ST >> GemForth implements Forth83 >> PowerForth inspired GemForth >> PowerForth begot GemForth > > The GemForth I used was build on UNIX-FORTH > UNIX-FORTH was written by Mitch Bradley. > > Jos > == > 4ePost: 368 bytes in mail. Elapsed time to buffer: .001423 sec. Article: 102846 of comp.lang.forth Path: tunews.univie.ac.at!aconews-feed.univie.ac.at!newsfeed.wu-wien.ac.at!newsfeeder1.noc.eunet-ag.at!news.eunet.at!feed.news.tiscali.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!216.196.110.149.MISMATCH!border2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!newsfeeder.wxs.nl!textnews.wxs.nl!not-for-mail From: Jos van de Ven Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth Subject: Re: Forth family tree (was: The future of Forth) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 20:01:14 +0200 Organization: Planet Internet Lines: 41 Message-ID: References: <774e24ad.0406171158.315004d4@posting.google.com> <2004Jun18.071304@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <2004Aug2.202627@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <41112430.623894828@192.168.0.1> <413584b1$0$28841$636a15ce@news.free.fr> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip51cec706.speed.planet.nl Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: reader10.wxs.nl 1094061938 20844 81.206.199.6 (1 Sep 2004 18:05:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@planet.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Sep 2004 18:05:38 GMT X-Newsreader: 4ePost v1.10 compiled with Win32Forth Xref: tunews.univie.ac.at comp.lang.forth:102846 "Bruno Gauthier" wrote: > Hi, > on Atari St , that was not gemforth but Forthmacs. There were several Forth-systems for the Atari. > Gem was the OS The GemForth I used was build on UNIX-FORTH as an extension. I build it myself on it and gave it a new name. It was never put on the internet. It was spread from a local BBS. I got the name UNIX-FORTH from one of the disk. Jos > "Jos van de Ven" a écrit dans le message de news: > cfls06$28h$1@reader13.wxs.nl... > > > > Stephen wrote: > >> Here are the MPE systems from memory. Some dates may be a > >> little approximate. > > > >> 1988 ?? implementation GemForth > >> \ 32 bit version for the Atari ST > >> GemForth implements Forth83 > >> PowerForth inspired GemForth > >> PowerForth begot GemForth > > > > The GemForth I used was build on UNIX-FORTH > > UNIX-FORTH was written by Mitch Bradley. > > > > Jos > > == > > 4ePost: 368 bytes in mail. Elapsed time to buffer: .001423 sec. > > > . == 4ePost: 1,008 bytes in mail. Elapsed time to buffer: .014742 sec. Article: 112703 of comp.lang.forth Path: tunews.univie.ac.at!aconews-feed.univie.ac.at!newsfeed.wu-wien.ac.at!newsfeed.utanet.at!news.germany.com!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news1.dtag.de!miriam.mikron.de!news From: Bernd Paysan Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth Subject: Re: New Distribution Package Distribution Packet VolksForth Atari ST Version 3.81 Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 11:43:11 +0200 Organization: Deutsche Telekom AG Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <2005Aug16.232959@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.25.101.185 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-Trace: news.dtag.de 1124275742 2386 194.25.101.185 (17 Aug 2005 10:49:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.dtag.de NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Aug 2005 10:49:02 GMT User-Agent: KNode/0.9.0 Xref: tunews.univie.ac.at comp.lang.forth:112703 Anton Ertl wrote: > Carsten Strotmann writes: >>VolksForth is a 16bit Forth System produced by the German Forth >>Gesellschaft e.V. Main development of this system was done between 1985 >>until 1989. > > Hmm, I have the date 1981 in the family tree data (and 1986 for > TurboForth), and I think I have this from a posting by Klaus > Schleisiek here. I don't see the posting on google groups, though. I got my volksForth 3.70 and 3.81 in 1986, and TurboForth (released later as bigFORTH) in 1989. volksForth followed the Forth-83 standard, so it must have started later than that. It also was a Forth Gesellschaft e.V. effort, and the FG was founded in 1984. 1985-86 for the main development effort, and -89 to TurboForth is the only possible time-line that fits all these constraints. Klaus might be thinking about earlier efforts which went into volksForth as well, but the project itself was started short after the foundation of the FG. -- Bernd Paysan "If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself" http://www.jwdt.com/~paysan/ Article: 112737 of comp.lang.forth Path: tunews.univie.ac.at!aconews-feed.univie.ac.at!newsfeed.wu-wien.ac.at!newsfeeder1.noc.eunet-ag.at!news.eunet.at!feed.news.tiscali.de!news.csl-gmbh.net!news1.dtag.de!miriam.mikron.de!news From: Bernd Paysan Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth Subject: Re: VolksForth history (was: New Distribution Package ...) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 14:29:59 +0200 Organization: Deutsche Telekom AG Lines: 34 Message-ID: <8jbet2-hn6.ln1@miriam.mikron.de> References: <2005Aug16.232959@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <2005Aug17.145322@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.25.101.185 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-Trace: news.dtag.de 1124371741 14182 194.25.101.185 (18 Aug 2005 13:29:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.dtag.de NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Aug 2005 13:29:01 GMT User-Agent: KNode/0.9.0 Xref: tunews.univie.ac.at comp.lang.forth:112737 Anton Ertl wrote: >>I got my volksForth 3.70 and 3.81 in 1986, and TurboForth (released later >>as bigFORTH) in 1989. volksForth followed the Forth-83 standard, so it >>must have started later than that. > > That was about what I originally had, until (IIRC) Klaus corrected me. > Maybe it was at EuroForth, not in a posting. He also said that it was > not a 83-standard Forth. IIRC, I originally supposed that VolksForth was based on F83, but it actually was based on figForth, but changed to match the Forth-83 standard. The development might have included parts that Klaus developed in 1981, since volksForth started out of something Klaus had before. > Ok, I have corrected this to: > > \ VolksForth and TurboForth > \U http://www.forth-ev.de/filemgmt/singlefile.php?lid=17 > \I for MSDOS, 6502, Z80, Atari ST by Forth Gesellschaft > 1985 Implementation VolksForth > figForth begot VolksForth > VolksForth conforms-to Forth83 > > 1989 Implementation TurboForth > TurboForth conforms-to Forth83 > VolksForth begot TurboForth I think most of TurboForth was implemented in 1988 or before, since in early 1989, when I got it, the development already had stalled. -- Bernd Paysan "If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself" http://www.jwdt.com/~paysan/